Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Dec 3, 2019 8:34:31 GMT
I don't understand this attitude. Harbinger is a Focus10 caster with Purification, Crusader's Call, Guided Hand, and Rebuke, and a Command12 aura of -2 to attack rolls for living models. In what world is that not an excellent caster, even if Martyrdom did not exist on her card? This narrative has been represented by a couple of users since the beginning of the forum/mk3. If you searched for posts from this period you would find a lot of similar gems. "Harby is unplayable" "Choir is unplayable" "our Warjacks are unplayable" "HR has been nerfed into unplayability" etc Of course it has since been disproved by players actually playing (shock! who does that!?) and winning with all those unplayable things (e.g.I mentioned Polish team with pre-buff "unplayable" CMD10 Harby winning most games at the WTC), but some players still hold on to this narrative of "Unless our models are invincible, flying, point-and-click weapons of mass destruction, they are barely playable and deserve more buffs".
I don't think trying to show them any arguments makes any difference. Try convincing a flat earther that our planet is round...
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Post by paradox on Dec 3, 2019 13:36:53 GMT
Which is why the answer is to buff other things in the faction to provide an attractive alternative to Harby+Initiates. Better to bring the balance up from the bottom than simply swat everything that is good down to mediocrity. I don't understand this attitude. Harbinger is a Focus10 caster with Purification, Crusader's Call, Guided Hand, and Rebuke, and a Command12 aura of -2 to attack rolls for living models. In what world is that not an excellent caster, even if Martyrdom did not exist on her card? Nerfing martyrdom would make her slip into A- tier. In a faction with a LOT of A- and A+ casters. She would fade into being an average caster for the faction. A faction which has had far too much of the flavor drained out of it.
Martyrdom is a very flavorful ability that is also strong. I don't want to see any more steps backward for the faction. Its been too much over the course of mk3. We've had our denial game cut way too far. Matyrdom is one of the only things that remains. Harbinger already got her feat made useless, Purification made cost4, the change to how focus works made her much more squishy, etc... Leave the poor girl alone.
Lol For one, this suggested change does nothing to the “flavor” of Harbie, just her power to make her forces unkillable. Second, MKIII has seen the judicator, all kinds of paladin stuff, and all kinds of exemplar stuff, and Sev0 FFS, added that is strong and improved the faction. Its hardly been a backslide. Finally, if Harbie kinda fades out a bit, thats OK. Because it means she wont be a majority of all pairings ever. Thats a good thing. Also, this is an EXTREMELY MILD nerf. And your kind of Female Doging is what brought us Leadership: Girded on the champ instead of Ret Strike.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Dec 3, 2019 15:44:50 GMT
I'll be honest, with the release of Initiates I have gotten a ton of use out of Leadership: Girded. So I can't let you die on that cross any more, 'dox.
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Post by paradox on Dec 3, 2019 15:51:51 GMT
I'll be honest, with the release of Initiates I have gotten a ton of use out of Leadership: Girded. So I can't let you die on that cross any more, 'dox. To be fair, I had it come up once, recently. So I cant say I NEVER get use from it. That said, the amount of missed Ret Strike opportunities....
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Dec 3, 2019 16:47:22 GMT
Id argue that the Initiates would not have received Ret Strike. Soles pivoted *hard* away from Initiates getting Righteous Vengeance from Vilmon during CID. I can only assume the same logic would have applied. PP wanted to keep them strictly defense and flat out refused to add or let them benefit from any rules that increased their offensive output.
Look at it this way: they got Girded, instead of nothing.
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Post by paradox on Dec 3, 2019 17:08:10 GMT
Id argue that the Initiates would not have received Ret Strike. Soles pivoted *hard* away from Initiates getting Righteous Vengeance from Vilmon during CID. I can only assume the same logic would have applied. PP wanted to keep them strictly defense and flat out refused to add or let them benefit from any rules that increased their offensive output. Look at it this way: they got Girded, instead of nothing. Im talking just about the champs and regular paladins themselves.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 4, 2019 7:18:53 GMT
Which is why the answer is to buff other things in the faction to provide an attractive alternative to Harby+Initiates. Better to bring the balance up from the bottom than simply swat everything that is good down to mediocrity. Nerfing martyrdom would make her slip into A- tier. In a faction with a LOT of A- and A+ casters. She would fade into being an average caster for the faction. A faction which has had far too much of the flavor drained out of it.
Martyrdom is a very flavorful ability that is also strong. I don't want to see any more steps backward for the faction. Its been too much over the course of mk3. We've had our denial game cut way too far. Matyrdom is one of the only things that remains. Harbinger already got her feat made useless, Purification made cost4, the change to how focus works made her much more squishy, etc... Leave the poor girl alone.
Lol For one, this suggested change does nothing to the “flavor” of Harbie, just her power to make her forces unkillable. Second, MKIII has seen the judicator, all kinds of paladin stuff, and all kinds of exemplar stuff, and Sev0 FFS, added that is strong and improved the faction. Its hardly been a backslide. Finally, if Harbie kinda fades out a bit, thats OK. Because it means she wont be a majority of all pairings ever. Thats a good thing. Also, this is an EXTREMELY MILD nerf. And your kind of Female Doging is what brought us Leadership: Girded on the champ instead of Ret Strike. No. What got us Girded was PP being stupid, nothing more.
Anyway. Harbinger hasn't been S tier since Mk3 dropped because of the minor nerfs+environmental changes. I really can't say Protectorate has any S tier casters anymore, and that kinda sucks when the other S tiers are not getting nerfed as well in similar fashions.
Maybe Initiates took her to an S tier list, but her on her own ceased being S tier on account of useless feat and Purification becoming cost 4. The changes to focus are also problematic as its easier to shoot her dead even through focus. A problem most Protectorate casters have now actually.
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Post by paradox on Dec 4, 2019 13:22:47 GMT
Lol For one, this suggested change does nothing to the “flavor” of Harbie, just her power to make her forces unkillable. Second, MKIII has seen the judicator, all kinds of paladin stuff, and all kinds of exemplar stuff, and Sev0 FFS, added that is strong and improved the faction. Its hardly been a backslide. Finally, if Harbie kinda fades out a bit, thats OK. Because it means she wont be a majority of all pairings ever. Thats a good thing. Also, this is an EXTREMELY MILD nerf. And your kind of Female Doging is what brought us Leadership: Girded on the champ instead of Ret Strike. No. What got us Girded was PP being stupid, nothing more.
Anyway. Harbinger hasn't been S tier since Mk3 dropped because of the minor nerfs+environmental changes. I really can't say Protectorate has any S tier casters anymore, and that kinda sucks when the other S tiers are not getting nerfed as well in similar fashions.
Maybe Initiates took her to an S tier list, but her on her own ceased being S tier on account of useless feat and Purification becoming cost 4. The changes to focus are also problematic as its easier to shoot her dead even through focus. A problem most Protectorate casters have now actually.
She’s S tier now, was before initiates, and will likely still be after this nerf. Im serious when I say I only play her to test something potentially broken in CID, or when someone asks for a beating.
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Post by michael on Dec 4, 2019 16:55:26 GMT
Maybe Initiates took her to an S tier list, but her on her own ceased being S tier on account of useless feat and Purification becoming cost 4. The changes to focus are also problematic as its easier to shoot her dead even through focus. A problem most Protectorate casters have now actually. [/div][/quote] I am curious: in which specific situations that you have personally encountered have you found it easy for your opponent to shoot Harbinger to death, through camped focus and 3-10+ shield guards each turn?
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Dec 4, 2019 17:22:00 GMT
No. What got us Girded was PP being stupid, nothing more. Point of order, you can go back to the CID reviews on Privateer Press' YouTube channel and see them talking about how angry people were about ret strike and that they were going to go with Girded because of that. They might have been stupid, but we caused it.
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Post by paradox on Dec 4, 2019 19:02:23 GMT
No. What got us Girded was PP being stupid, nothing more. Point of order, you can go back to the CID reviews on Privateer Press' YouTube channel and see them talking about how angry people were about ret strike and that they were going to go with Girded because of that. They might have been stupid, but we caused it. True dat. Im still not over it.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Dec 4, 2019 22:11:02 GMT
Lol For one, this suggested change does nothing to the “flavor” of Harbie, just her power to make her forces unkillable. Second, MKIII has seen the judicator, all kinds of paladin stuff, and all kinds of exemplar stuff, and Sev0 FFS, added that is strong and improved the faction. Its hardly been a backslide. Finally, if Harbie kinda fades out a bit, thats OK. Because it means she wont be a majority of all pairings ever. Thats a good thing. Also, this is an EXTREMELY MILD nerf. And your kind of Female Doging is what brought us Leadership: Girded on the champ instead of Ret Strike. No. What got us Girded was PP being stupid, nothing more.
Anyway. Harbinger hasn't been S tier since Mk3 dropped because of the minor nerfs+environmental changes. I really can't say Protectorate has any S tier casters anymore, and that kinda sucks when the other S tiers are not getting nerfed as well in similar fashions.
Maybe Initiates took her to an S tier list, but her on her own ceased being S tier on account of useless feat and Purification becoming cost 4. The changes to focus are also problematic as its easier to shoot her dead even through focus. A problem most Protectorate casters have now actually.
So...purification going from Cost 3 to Cost 4, on a FOCUS10 Warcaster, is part of why you think Harbinger is "not S tier"? The other being a feat that you believe is useless (despite all evidence to the contrary)?
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Post by streetpizza on Dec 4, 2019 23:10:57 GMT
Anyway. Harbinger hasn't been S tier since Mk3 dropped because of the minor nerfs+environmental changes. I really can't say Protectorate has any S tier casters anymore, and that kinda sucks when the other S tiers are not getting nerfed as well in similar fashions.
Una2, Haley2, Caine2, Sloan, Nemo3 and Madrak2 all say "Hi Friend!" In the non caster realm you can add Lord of the Feast, storm lances and Clockatrices as well. Really I guess if nerfs are a legitimate point for complaint the faction that should be complaining here is Cygnar. In reality though they were all changes that the game needed and you can toss Harby on that pile. Protectorate will be fine and still near the tippy toppest of top tier.
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Post by michael on Dec 5, 2019 0:48:55 GMT
So...purification going from Cost 3 to Cost 4, on a FOCUS10 Warcaster, is part of why you think Harbinger is "not S tier"? The other being a feat that you believe is useless (despite all evidence to the contrary)? Dude, cut the guy some slack. I mean it’s not like this is a faction with easy access to both Harmonious Exaltation or Wracks! Casters are trash and, like, D- tier at best unless they have at least 11 or 12 focus to spend each turn. Everybody knows that, noob.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Dec 6, 2019 20:01:33 GMT
Harby not being S-tier right now is the strangest of takes. She's dominant and oppressive. She was at least A tier before Initiates, and was played routinely to good success. Now she's at least S tier, if not S+ a-league-of-her-own tier. She's no joke likely the best 'caster in the game.
This nerf will not change her dominance. I'm not kidding when I say I can win most games I play with her Martyring between 0 and 5 times, total. Her kit is powerful and this nerf is only slightly more significant than the Judicator going up a point (lol).
Also, her Feat is not useless. At all. Especially now that Menite Archons make those POW 14s into POW 16s. And I'm not sure where you're playing if she's at threat from guns. Sprays are the only thing she's threatened by and it's hard to bury enough deep in the lines to kill her. And if she's at threat, you just... don't Martyr as much?
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