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Post by greytemplar on Dec 1, 2019 7:35:29 GMT
This would not be a good choice for them to make. Harbinger is fine. The issue is other models and not Harbinger herself.
They need to make other casters a viable choice other than Harby+Initiates.
The only reason to change Harbinger is to a complete redesign. The only way D3+1 damage for Maryrdom would be acceptable is if they increased her command range AND changed her feat to something useful.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 2, 2019 7:33:41 GMT
I don't think Harby is the issue. The issue that everyone is having is Harby being able to take 9 shield guards for free in FM. I think they just need to change the theme to be able to take a max of 1 free initiate unit. Everyone can pay to take the 2nd (7 points) or 3rd unit (14 points) if they want to take more initiates. Also the fact the most tournament list are not designed to counter harby is also part of the problem. Most tourney list are designed to counter high armor list, immortals, durpturtle, Scary Gary, or Clockatrice. They also don't have the high volume of attacks you need to counter Harby. I would tend to disagree. Even lists that are made to counter Harbinger, like 9 Stalkers or some such nonsense, don't actually have enough Grievous Wounds to chew through everything before you start losing things. Don't forget that the list tends to have a lot more skew than just "you can't kill my models": there's lots of high ARM and/or high DEF, Tough/no-KD, massive threat ranges due to Crusader's Call, Purification, a Judicator, and now even some Archons to top it all off. The only "counter" to Harbinger is doing your best and hoping the Protectorate players messes up and clocks themselves or somehow opens up to assassination. I will agree that the last one is a lot harder now that Initiates are a thing, since you basically need sprays.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Dec 2, 2019 10:30:09 GMT
I don't think Harby is the issue. The issue that everyone is having is Harby being able to take 9 shield guards for free in FM. I think they just need to change the theme to be able to take a max of 1 free initiate unit. Everyone can pay to take the 2nd (7 points) or 3rd unit (14 points) if they want to take more initiates. Also the fact the most tournament list are not designed to counter harby is also part of the problem. Most tourney list are designed to counter high armor list, immortals, durpturtle, Scary Gary, or Clockatrice. They also don't have the high volume of attacks you need to counter Harby. I think it will be a straight not an free option or free option for the initiates. I think free units are very good and then even a 7 point unit is straight up stupid. If you have to pay for the initates it probably costs you 6-9 points to do so (depending on 4/5 points freebes) or at least 3 if you would take vasalls and the character guy as your only free options. Another point from the WTC is more critical: They absolutely teched against Harby and she still wrecked house. Everybody knew she was coming and prepared and the list, tried to have solution between the team player and harby was still strong enough to just keep winning. That is an absolute red line for balance. If you cannot counter the list if you try, then we are in bad territory.
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Post by paradox on Dec 2, 2019 12:41:09 GMT
Initiates are ONLY a problem with Harbinger, though. Because she’s the problem. Im happy to see what the update brings. I might actually play Harbie again! Now, I only play her in CID, or if someone asks for it. Because its no fun on either side.
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snap
10 Point Advantage
Posts: 78
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Post by snap on Dec 2, 2019 18:36:10 GMT
Initiates are ONLY a problem with Harbinger, though. Because she’s the problem. Im happy to see what the update brings. I might actually play Harbie again! Now, I only play her in CID, or if someone asks for it. Because its no fun on either side. I think you're mistaken. Initiates are amazing with literally every other caster in faction when against guns... And they're free!
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Post by bearstronaut on Dec 2, 2019 18:39:43 GMT
I don't think Harby is the issue. The issue that everyone is having is Harby being able to take 9 shield guards for free in FM. I think they just need to change the theme to be able to take a max of 1 free initiate unit. Everyone can pay to take the 2nd (7 points) or 3rd unit (14 points) if they want to take more initiates. Also the fact the most tournament list are not designed to counter harby is also part of the problem. Most tourney list are designed to counter high armor list, immortals, durpturtle, Scary Gary, or Clockatrice. They also don't have the high volume of attacks you need to counter Harby. If people are having trouble with Harbinger because they don't have a list in mind to play against her, then that itself is a problem. I also don't think it's an accurate statement at all, since I think most metas have to deal with a Harby player or two. Either way if 9 shield guards for free in FM is only an issue with Harbinger, then Harbinger is the one who needs to be looked at. Nerfing FM is just overkill and it will either: A. Nerf Harbinger which you don't seem to want, or B. Nerf the whole faction, but Harbinger is still the best option because she's Harbinger. Just nerf Harbinger and get it over with. Sure you could say she wasn't a big problem before FM made 3 units of initiates for free, but that's not the game we're playing in anymore.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Dec 2, 2019 19:33:18 GMT
Initiates are ONLY a problem with Harbinger, though. Because she’s the problem. Agreed. Shield guards actually gives us game into our most threatening counters, especially gunline Ret. They also make all of our other casters much more playable in the theme. Initiates are a defensive unit in an offense oriented game, they aren't the problem until they start closing out games, which they just don't. They can't stand up to jacks or infantry blobs.
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snap
10 Point Advantage
Posts: 78
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Post by snap on Dec 2, 2019 19:45:34 GMT
Initiates are ONLY a problem with Harbinger, though. Because she’s the problem. Agreed. Shield guards actually gives us game into our most threatening counters, especially gunline Ret. They also make all of our other casters much more playable in the theme. Initiates are a defensive unit in an offense oriented game, they aren't the problem until they start closing out games, which they just don't. They can't stand up to jacks or infantry blobs. 9 shield guards is a lot of counterplay. You run into realms of locking out tridents shots which makes the bulk of a ret force useless. That's quite a lot of game for requisition pts.
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Post by paradox on Dec 2, 2019 20:13:59 GMT
Initiates are ONLY a problem with Harbinger, though. Because she’s the problem. Im happy to see what the update brings. I might actually play Harbie again! Now, I only play her in CID, or if someone asks for it. Because its no fun on either side. I think you're mistaken. Initiates are amazing with literally every other caster in faction when against guns... And they're free! Im not mistaken. Sans Martyrdom, its pretty easy to kill initiates. Or ignore them. MAT6 PS12 is very meh individually. CMA to MAT9 PS15 and theyre not quite as good as a free 6pt solo. Basically, theyre cheap bodies and shield guards. But one shot each is pretty much all they need to die. So unless youre a potato, or facing Martyrdom, you account for having to kill off shield guards.
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snap
10 Point Advantage
Posts: 78
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Post by snap on Dec 2, 2019 20:23:29 GMT
I think you're mistaken. Initiates are amazing with literally every other caster in faction when against guns... And they're free! Im not mistaken. Sans Martyrdom, its pretty easy to kill initiates. Or ignore them. MAT6 PS12 is very meh individually. CMA to MAT9 PS15 and theyre not quite as good as a free 6pt solo. Basically, theyre cheap bodies and shield guards. But one shot each is pretty much all they need to die. So unless youre a potato, or facing Martyrdom, you account for having to kill off shield guards. No no, you are. If you shoot me I shut down your shooting for a turn and charge you/take scenario. If you play melee I just put them in front of the things you want to kill... If you put a shot that hits a 26 into my free dudes I'm cool with that? likewise melee...
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Post by paradox on Dec 2, 2019 20:46:15 GMT
Im not mistaken. Sans Martyrdom, its pretty easy to kill initiates. Or ignore them. MAT6 PS12 is very meh individually. CMA to MAT9 PS15 and theyre not quite as good as a free 6pt solo. Basically, theyre cheap bodies and shield guards. But one shot each is pretty much all they need to die. So unless youre a potato, or facing Martyrdom, you account for having to kill off shield guards. No no, you are. If you shoot me I shut down your shooting for a turn and charge you/take scenario. If you play melee I just put them in front of the things you want to kill... If you put a shot that hits a 26 into my free dudes I'm cool with that? likewise melee... Oh, so you face alot of potatos then.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Dec 2, 2019 23:19:30 GMT
This would not be a good choice for them to make. Harbinger is fine. The issue is other models and not Harbinger herself. They need to make other casters a viable choice other than Harby+Initiates. The only reason to change Harbinger is to a complete redesign. The only way D3+1 damage for Maryrdom would be acceptable is if they increased her command range AND changed her feat to something useful. I don't understand this attitude. Harbinger is a Focus10 caster with Purification, Crusader's Call, Guided Hand, and Rebuke, and a Command12 aura of -2 to attack rolls for living models. In what world is that not an excellent caster, even if Martyrdom did not exist on her card?
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Dec 3, 2019 1:28:19 GMT
Every single opponent I have played Initiates into without Harby at the helm has said the same thing: that Initiates are very good, but manageable. It's Harby that takes them over the top.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 3, 2019 7:39:08 GMT
Which is why the answer is to buff other things in the faction to provide an attractive alternative to Harby+Initiates. Better to bring the balance up from the bottom than simply swat everything that is good down to mediocrity. This would not be a good choice for them to make. Harbinger is fine. The issue is other models and not Harbinger herself. They need to make other casters a viable choice other than Harby+Initiates. The only reason to change Harbinger is to a complete redesign. The only way D3+1 damage for Maryrdom would be acceptable is if they increased her command range AND changed her feat to something useful. I don't understand this attitude. Harbinger is a Focus10 caster with Purification, Crusader's Call, Guided Hand, and Rebuke, and a Command12 aura of -2 to attack rolls for living models. In what world is that not an excellent caster, even if Martyrdom did not exist on her card? Nerfing martyrdom would make her slip into A- tier. In a faction with a LOT of A- and A+ casters. She would fade into being an average caster for the faction. A faction which has had far too much of the flavor drained out of it.
Martyrdom is a very flavorful ability that is also strong. I don't want to see any more steps backward for the faction. Its been too much over the course of mk3. We've had our denial game cut way too far. Matyrdom is one of the only things that remains. Harbinger already got her feat made useless, Purification made cost4, the change to how focus works made her much more squishy, etc... Leave the poor girl alone.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 3, 2019 8:11:58 GMT
Nerfing martyrdom would make her slip into A- tier. In a faction with a LOT of A- and A+ casters. She would fade into being an average caster for the faction. A faction which has had far too much of the flavor drained out of it. Martyrdom is a very flavorful ability that is also strong. I don't want to see any more steps backward for the faction. Its been too much over the course of mk3. We've had our denial game cut way too far. Matyrdom is one of the only things that remains. Harbinger already got her feat made useless, Purification made cost4, the change to how focus works made her much more squishy, etc... Leave the poor girl alone.
I'm honestly not sure if you're being serious at this point. You're complaining that your S-tier caster might be brought "down" to A-tier, because... you already have a large stable of A-tier casters that might now see more play? Purification still does work, especially on a FOC 10 caster, also, the feat is far from useless; 12" is still quite far out and is massive denial against infantry armies, that already suffer from Awe. She also still has Rebuke. Even if they cut Martyrdom from her card completely (which they won't), there are still plenty of control/denial tools. Aside from that, there are still Vindictus, High Reclaimer, Cyrenia, Durst, and probably a couple of other casters, that have strong control tools/feats.
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