petef
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Post by petef on Nov 28, 2019 13:45:46 GMT
Just listened to Minority report podcast Episode 18 which was an interview with Hungerford. Very heavily hinted that there will be a minor nerf to Harby. Maybe hinted that martyr might go to something like D3+1 damage. Have listen if you are interested, haven't seen it posted here, so I though I would do so.
Discuss!
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Nov 28, 2019 14:16:07 GMT
The fact that out of all PoM casters she received a buff earlier is one of the biggest absurdities of this edition "balancing" attempts. No idea what they were thinking then, can't guess what other nonsense they may be thinking now.
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snap
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Post by snap on Nov 28, 2019 14:39:35 GMT
The fact that out of all PoM casters she received a buff earlier is one of the biggest absurdities of this edition "balancing" attempts. No idea what they were thinking then, can't guess what other nonsense they may be thinking now. Excuse me while I put my tiny violin away and say something worth saying: I was having a chat with a friend about this and he was saying that Harby isn't the problem. She got a buff earlier on due to her never being taken. EI had better casters and FM didn't have the punch. The thing that makes Harby amazing are models that have been released recently like: Initiates, Champions of the Order Wall and Menite Archons. So an answer might be to nerf those models... But that would nerf the factions... Which sort of leaves the question of how does Harby get nerfed without loosing her entirely. The answer isn't simple so I think we'll see quite a few different versions before the end. Personally I could see Martyr being once per model. Or the damage going up to d3+1. As an outlier Martyr could only be done in your opponents turn as a result of an enemy attack.
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petef
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Post by petef on Nov 28, 2019 15:21:36 GMT
I agree with Snap.
I would also say, sometimes, with the best will in the world, things can be underpowered and need a buff, but then you push it too far the other way. It's not always an easy line to walk.
I guess they have looked at the WTC stats about which casters are taken per faction and Harby is just too warping for the faction. It's not like there are not lots of other good casters. I've listened to the Norway WTC winners talking about taking Cyrenia rather than Harby on some other podcasts like The Meta, even if his other team-mate had not been taking Harby. They have some interesting thoughts on that choice.
If it is move martyr from D3 to D3+1 (not that I'm saying I know anything other than what is hinted in the Minority report podcast), it's not the hardest nerf ever.
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Post by paradox on Nov 28, 2019 18:58:36 GMT
The fact that out of all PoM casters she received a buff earlier is one of the biggest absurdities of this edition "balancing" attempts. No idea what they were thinking then, can't guess what other nonsense they may be thinking now. Excuse me while I put my tiny violin away and say something worth saying: I was having a chat with a friend about this and he was saying that Harby isn't the problem. She got a buff earlier on due to her never being taken. EI had better casters and FM didn't have the punch. The thing that makes Harby amazing are models that have been released recently like: Initiates, Champions of the Order Wall and Menite Archons. So an answer might be to nerf those models... But that would nerf the factions... Which sort of leaves the question of how does Harby get nerfed without loosing her entirely. The answer isn't simple so I think we'll see quite a few different versions before the end. Personally I could see Martyr being once per model. Or the damage going up to d3+1. As an outlier Martyr could only be done in your opponents turn as a result of an enemy attack. No, the issue is definitely Harbie, and the assertion that she was “never taken” is laughable.
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snap
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Post by snap on Nov 28, 2019 19:15:52 GMT
Excuse me while I put my tiny violin away and say something worth saying: I was having a chat with a friend about this and he was saying that Harby isn't the problem. She got a buff earlier on due to her never being taken. EI had better casters and FM didn't have the punch. The thing that makes Harby amazing are models that have been released recently like: Initiates, Champions of the Order Wall and Menite Archons. So an answer might be to nerf those models... But that would nerf the factions... Which sort of leaves the question of how does Harby get nerfed without loosing her entirely. The answer isn't simple so I think we'll see quite a few different versions before the end. Personally I could see Martyr being once per model. Or the damage going up to d3+1. As an outlier Martyr could only be done in your opponents turn as a result of an enemy attack. No, the issue is definitely Harbie, and the assertion that she was “never taken” is laughable. Well clearly you don't remember the start of mark 3. It was a long time ago to be fair. Without initiats how do you stop her getting shot off of the board? The kind of casters we were seeing a lot of were sevvy2 and kreoss 3. We got some very good releases and harby just turned them up to 11. Or they turned her up to 11.
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Post by paradox on Nov 28, 2019 20:44:36 GMT
No, the issue is definitely Harbie, and the assertion that she was “never taken” is laughable. Well clearly you don't remember the start of mark 3. It was a long time ago to be fair. Without initiats how do you stop her getting shot off of the board? The kind of casters we were seeing a lot of were sevvy2 and kreoss 3. We got some very good releases and harby just turned them up to 11. Or they turned her up to 11. In point of fact, I do. And you had Devouts, Vilmon, and Rhovens guards. And a theme wall weve since lost. And just los blocking. But thats actual skill and play.
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Post by jagius021 on Nov 28, 2019 23:27:52 GMT
Just from looking at local/regional meta, around me people weren't playing a lot of menoth at the beginning of things. They were all playing their other factions and the new models, themes, and balancing brought them back out. So from what I had seen on that level, yeah people weren't playing her because they weren't playing much menoth in general. Again, that's just one area, I wasn't following menoth on the global scale at that time.
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Post by mydnight on Nov 29, 2019 3:00:59 GMT
Imagine if it become the Dhunian Archons version: "Threads of Life - Once per turn when a friendly non-warlock warrior model in this model's command range is hit by an enemy attack, this model can suffer d3 damage points. The friendly model does not suffer a damage roll from the attack."
The resulting salt mines ....
I think 'each model can only be affected once per turn' is probably reasonable, but wordy.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
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Post by privvy on Nov 29, 2019 3:20:28 GMT
That could become rough to keep track of. D3+1 damage shifts the average amount of Martyr's from 8 to 5, which is both subtle and impactful without being too tough a nerf. It means she loses Initiates at a greater rate, which means she can get shot up if she isn't careful.
I think the meta was already thinking of moving away from Harby because she is boring to play. We've seen other FM casters that run it pretty well.
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Cyel
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Post by Cyel on Nov 29, 2019 5:58:34 GMT
Well clearly you don't remember the start of mark 3. It was a long time ago to be fair. Without initiats how do you stop her getting shot off of the board? The kind of casters we were seeing a lot of were sevvy2 and kreoss 3. We got some very good releases and harby just turned them up to 11. Or they turned her up to 11. In point of fact, I do. And you had Devouts, Vilmon, and Rhovens guards. And a theme wall weve since lost. And just los blocking. But thats actual skill and play. Also in the beginning of 3rd people in some countries refused to listen to recommended terrain setups and kept setting up terrain just like in 2nd. As a result they kept playing on empty shooting ranges with no LOS blockers and complained about shooting being overpowered. Those players had to be directly instructed about LOS blocking terrain being ok, desirable and in fact necessary in the following SR packets.
And yeah. I remember all the complaining from the beginning of 3rd about PoM being absolutely unplayable just because our OP stuff has just been brought in line. Surprisingly, Polish WTC teams took pre-buff PoM to WTCs with great results, but what do they know, those Polish players....
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snoozer
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Post by snoozer on Nov 29, 2019 10:39:02 GMT
I expect a double tap thing. Slight nerf to harby herself and then the initiates probably losing the option of being taken for free. Maybe even their Boxes. It is precisely this combo that is so absurd combined with all the hard hitting high def models in FM that she can easily keep alife while having 9 free shield guards that might not even die to the shots they tank.
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petef
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Post by petef on Nov 29, 2019 11:24:15 GMT
I expect a double tap thing. Slight nerf to harby herself and then the initiates probably losing the option of being taken for free. Maybe even their Boxes. It is precisely this combo that is so absurd combined with all the hard hitting high def models in FM that she can easily keep alife while having 9 free shield guards that might not even die to the shots they tank. Hungerford said explicitly on the podcast that there are only two nerfs in the next dynamic update. Clockatrice was explicitly said as one thing getting some element of nerf - hinted that it might be something to do with time stutter. Harby was the other very heavily hinted at nerf model. Hungerford was suggesting these will be relatively light nerfs and then see how the meta shakes out. I guess the proof of this will be seen in the next six to twelve months of tournament play and results.
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Post by michael on Nov 29, 2019 18:39:48 GMT
A couple years ago I actually gave away my unassembled-for-10-years Harbinger to another player whose Harbinger suffered a bag collapse. You know why I never assembled her? Because if I saw somebody playing Protectorate, odds were about 50/50 that they were going to pull Harbinger out of their bag. Harbinger has been, like, consistently in the top 5 across the game since Apotheosis.
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Alealexi
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Burning heritecs and wracking as always... it's a personal hobby.
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Post by Alealexi on Nov 30, 2019 1:26:40 GMT
I don't think Harby is the issue. The issue that everyone is having is Harby being able to take 9 shield guards for free in FM. I think they just need to change the theme to be able to take a max of 1 free initiate unit. Everyone can pay to take the 2nd (7 points) or 3rd unit (14 points) if they want to take more initiates. Also the fact the most tournament list are not designed to counter harby is also part of the problem. Most tourney list are designed to counter high armor list, immortals, durpturtle, Scary Gary, or Clockatrice. They also don't have the high volume of attacks you need to counter Harby.
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