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Post by Havock on Nov 14, 2019 1:51:36 GMT
To be fair, that nerf was somewhat of a dreaded "double dip", where something is too good but they both nerf it and make it worse when one or the other would suffice.
Sort of like the reverse where they buf things and make them freebies in certain themes, or cheaper in general, causing it to overperform wildly.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 14, 2019 4:33:00 GMT
I believe it was a triple nerf actually. They nerfed Karchev, they nerfed the mad dog and they increased the mad dog cost.
While I don't think the list was fine, they definitely went overboard in their reaction.
Back on topic, no one else tempted by Reznik? I want to see MAT9 P&S21 juggernauts with Boundless Charge!
Cheers, Dave
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Post by auraco on Nov 14, 2019 12:16:02 GMT
Reznik could be interesting, but I'm not sure what to do about his battlegroup, everything else in the list is super fast (including Reznik himself), spd 4 jacks are just going to lag behind not being releveant until one turn too late. I do like the idea of a unit of vengers with death march and archons under boundless charge and the feat though.
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Post by michael on Nov 14, 2019 13:16:26 GMT
I believe it was a triple nerf actually. They nerfed Karchev, they nerfed the mad dog and they increased the mad dog cost. ... Cheers, Dave Quadruple. That was the update that removed the ability to power attack friendly models too!
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Nov 14, 2019 15:36:30 GMT
Reznik could be interesting, but I'm not sure what to do about his battlegroup, everything else in the list is super fast (including Reznik himself), spd 4 jacks are just going to lag behind not being releveant until one turn too late. I do like the idea of a unit of vengers with death march and archons under boundless charge and the feat though. Either his character jack and a kodiak or double destroyer I guess? Scourge of Heresy has a thresher which goes well with the feat, kodiak has pathfinder, while the destroyer can blow up a bunch of things under feat too with a well placed shot, and can stay back so it doesnt need to be fast. Alternatively a devout to keep him save and those protectorate spray jacks. And yes, I realise that all of this relies heavily on the feat, but that IS the most fun part of his card.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 17, 2019 3:59:29 GMT
I was thinking devout, double juggernaut myself.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by bearstronaut on Dec 2, 2019 18:21:26 GMT
I've played Reznik2 in Old Faith consistently since August, and I'd say by now I have over 40 games played with him, and about a half dozen more in just Old Faith. I recently took him and OW2 Wolves to Winter Wasteland, an IGQ in Canada, and won.
I agree with auraco that a lot of power from the list comes from the list itself, and that a lot of the time the caster can safely take a backseat and just let things like Judicators, Menite Archons, or Paladins just do their things and succeed.
My experience with Reznik has been a lot of fun, POW 16 (or even 18 with Hermit) feat explosions can do really ridiculous things, like killing mechanik type models and then blow up an arm off the warjack they were hugging. Unfortunately Reznik2 is not the bully he wants to be in this list, chiefly because he is missing Corbeau and if he could take her then I would argue that he is one of Khador's best warcasters atm. The reality is that Reznik has to play very cagey as he is probably one of the easiest casters to kill in the current meta. Retribution just hoses him, for example, and I face a lot of that consistently. That isn't to say Reznik is bad, but you have to play a fine line in both list-building and gameplay: How much do you invest into protecting Reznik without sacrificing your offensive punch to actually stay in the game? In my early list drafts I ran the full gamut of models to protect Reznik, and the result is what you'd expect: Reznik would be alive, but my scenario game suffered immensely. I learned quickly that it's not worth it to chase after the juicy Lamentation tax on your opponent, or charge in and do some damage after slinging a punishing Flesh is Weak.
Currently Reznik2 is still in my pairing with Zerkova1 Flames, but I am heavily considering dropping him for Feora3. Currently all I can figure is that the only thing Zerkova1 can't really play into is: Harbinger (who knows what post-nerf will be), Makeda3 (specifically Archidon spam), and very heavy armour bricks (Rasheth 4 huge bases, and a future Lucant list with all the medium based infantry comes to mind). The last is a problem since the Wolves list Flames replaces was specifically made to answer lists like Rasheth which I knew Reznik couldn't manage. Reznik2 has decent game into the first two, but not the last unless they are very spell reliant. I'm going to test to see if Feora3 can manage to keep up the same kind of performance, while giving me a ballbusting answer to high armour lists.
Here is the list that I took to the IGQ, I'm already tinkering with it still, and will be testing it out with a Siege Chariot as I also try out Feora3.
Khador [Theme] Warriors of the Old Faith
[Reznik 2] Servath Reznik, Wrath of Ages [+29] - Judicator [35] - Repenter [8] Champion of the Order of the Wall [8] Hand of Silence [7] Hermit of Henge Hold [0(5)] High Paladin Dartan Vilmon [0(6)] Menite Archon [8] Menite Archon [8] Paladin of the Order of the Wall [0(4)] Vassal Mechanik [1] Wrack [1] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Flame Bringers (max) [17] Initiates of the Wall [7]
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Post by auraco on Dec 4, 2019 15:49:32 GMT
bearstronaut Is the repenter in your list just to have a cheap model to score square zone without commiting the judicator? I do like the rest of your list, it a shame that scourge of heresy didn't make the cut though, that jack with Reznik is serious buisness, altough it is a little slow for the theme. I like the inclusion of the cavalry solos that probably make fairly good boundless charge targets. I'm still testing my Vlad3 list to see what it can handle and what requires an other list to handle, yesterday my game against Ossrum left me thinking it's probably best left to an other list. In what kind of list would you drop the Reznik2 list? I haven't taken the time to try the Menite casters in the theme just yet, but I do own all of them
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Post by bearstronaut on Dec 4, 2019 19:32:04 GMT
auraco
The Repenter is the last 8 points to the list that I've found is fairly difficult to decide on. It used to be a 2nd Champion, but I found that it was too much of what I already had. The fire spray is particularly good with Reznik2, as Curse affects an entire unit. It has been useful for putting a lot of fire on Harby's army, as the Repenter ignores Awe, or badtouching Tharn during a Baldur1 feat turn. That being said it is not a critical part of the list, and I wouldn't miss it terribly unless I was building Repenter spam. On it's best day, it's a RAT 7 POW 16 boostable spray that also causes AOE 4 explosions, not bad.
Scourge was always in my earliest lists, and while he netted me a couple wins with his dark horse assassination threat, I found he was just too expensive to fit the things I want in the list and I have never had a reason to drop the Judicator. Scourge was also in my list when I tried to make Reznik playable into everything, and his role here was to keep spells off the Judicator and Reznik while they couldn't be shot at. As I already said, I found that doing this crippled my list for my opponent's benefit, as I invested too much in protecting my forces.
The only faction I have found that I absolutely would not drop Reznik into is Retribution, they just have too many tools to shoot our jacks or casters off the table. I would say that this is the same for almost all of the Old Faith casters, except maybe Kreoss3. Other things I quickly learned to look out for was Rasheth and Ossrum in Hammerstrike. Generally hard bricks that don't rely on spells are hard for him to deal with.
Now for things I would drop him against:
Protectorate is great for him, especially since they've also been taking a lot of Menite Archons which will typically favour Reznik more than the other way around as you don't need to run your own Archons into places to buff the feat. You will see some fire immune models, but it's not like the list actually relies on the fire damage. Harbinger is a 50/50 match I've found, but you're advantaged if she runs a Judicator over multiple heavies. The reason being here is that you can shoot at his Judicator, but not the other way around, which puts the Harbinger player on a timer. Menite Archons turn this list on as well as they ignore both Awe and Martyrdom with their flail attacks, they are excellent for triggering the feat on Initiates. You won't have the focus to keep casting your upkeep spells, so spamming Boundless Charge is very relevant in this match-up. Always look out for when the Harby player gets too greedy with his martyrdoms, she has zero defense against your sprays.
Skorne is one that you wouldn't expect him to be good in, but he is so long as you don't see Rasheth in their pairing. POW 16 Fire damage rolls from the feat kill Immortals fairly reliably, as they're usually packed together quite densely to get their faction support. You also deny the Skorne player a decent portion of souls. Supreme Guardians are a problem, you essentially just ignore them on the feat turn and hope you can punk one with the Judicator afterwards. He is also alright into Makeda3, though I think she is still favoured into 99% of the game, he does it better than most though. This is simply because you ignore Bulwark, anything in your army can explode Archidons, and your list generally doesn't have many options for Makeda to surf through and just win the game. Very playable matchups in two of the best lists in the game imo.
Circle is not great for him, but it's not awful either. Reznik has to play extremely cagey without Corbeau, but Tharn are genuinely terrified of his kit. Flesh is Weak is very fun to throw out too, I've had it scatter onto the Storm Raptor before. I would say he can play into either Iona or Baldur1 in Tharn, which is probably what you would expect them to drop as the Circle player probably won't drop Kreuger2 Bones into Flames in the Darkness or Wolves of Winter. I genuinely hate playing against Circle, but we don't have it as bad as other factions. If you take Z1 Flames, she will do better into Circle than Wolves of Winter or Old Faith will.
I haven't tried him against Grymkin yet, but I've theorized that this is a pretty good matchup for him as well.
There is a great thread in the Protectorate board here that goes over Reznik's matchups in much more detail, but these are some highlights that I feel is very relevant to our current meta. Our Reznik is also very distinct from PoM Reznik, as his list is not chained to supporting a pair with Harbinger. The BC meta is very cutthroat and we have some of the best players in the world, so I regularly have the pleasure of fighting the best and greasiest lists the game has to offer atm.
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Post by auraco on Dec 5, 2019 3:13:51 GMT
Thanks for the detailed answer Right, I never think about the curse Reznik2 can put when list building, it sure is a great way to get good mileage out of the sprays in the list. Wotof in general does sound like it can play into harby, maybe not get a good match up but at least a fighting chance, which is more than a couple of our other theme can say. Ah Rashet, my old nemesis, probably the Skorne caster I least want to see on the other side of the table. Is the triple battle engine rashet list still a thing? Reznik2's feat seems like a surefire way to not play into exalted due to the RFP par of it, that's not inherently bad, it helps predict the match up during list selection. Yeah I don't think Reznik2 wants to play into Kruger2 bones. Vlad3 can do it, but you need flame brigners over outriders if you really want to stand a chance, and also drop the upkeeps from the judicator after turn one if you don't want to get purgationed to death. The Flame brigners are pretty good in circle in general, and I think wotof has all the tools to play into tharn regardless of our caster, it's great because before that tharn felt like a very tough match up for us. I agree with your theory about playing into grymkin, the list has all the necessary tools to do it properly. What do you see in Feora3 over say Vlad3? Both seem to have a very similar gameplan to me, and will probably run very similar lists. Zerkova1 Flames seems like a good pairing, it can play into guns something Warrior of the old faith can do ok, but not great.
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Post by bearstronaut on Dec 6, 2019 18:41:57 GMT
One of my most frequent opponents plays Rasheth 4 huge bases with Zaal2 Exalted, he is moving on to Convergence soon but he is a very big fan of heavy brick lists so I anticipate fighting something very similar under Lucant.
Circle is a bit of a list chicken with Reznik/Wolves, but I think it's much worse for the Circle player if he drops Bones into Wolves. You can still play Old Faith into Kreuger, you just don't expect Reznik to participate much.
So far the only thing I've been able to figure Zerkova can't play into is very heavy brick lists, and Feora3 easily has the biggest damage swing of all 4 Old Faith warcasters. That's essentially it.
My biggest issue with Vlad3 and Reznik2 is that they don't really push up our offensive stats. Reznik2's Curse very rarely gets out to where you would want it, and while Hand of Fate is an amazing dice fixer, a lot of times it's not a guarantee that you will get lucky. +2 to attacks and damage rolls is +2 to attack and damage rolls, there's no dice involved there. I also don't like most of the feats for the Old Faith casters (as cool as Reznik2's sounds), but I dislike Vlad3's the most. Feora3 has a boring feat, essentially +4 Focus and Flame Trail, but it's pretty important, it's almost 1 guaranteed turn of using Incite and being confident that you're safe from retaliation. I'm sure a few Infernal players would dispute me on this, but I think we have the best Feora3.
When it comes down to it, the choice you're making between Vlad3 and Feora3 is Hand of Fate or Incite. I prefer Incite.
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Post by auraco on Dec 11, 2019 15:30:56 GMT
Ok so next question about the theme, is there any reason not to take the judicator. Every time time I make a list without it, it fells worst than if it had one... Which just seems dumb considering that Fire of Salvation and Scourge of Heresy are both pretty good jacks... Hand of Judgement is lagging behind so he's not that high on the consideration list.
I mean I've got a judicator, so it's all fine, but list building just seems dumb when it's an auto include... I guess it's a Menoth first world problem.
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Post by bearstronaut on Dec 11, 2019 20:00:19 GMT
I agree that it's very hard to get off the Judicator-train. It just does a little bit (or a lot) of everything. It doesn't help that it just has excellent synergy with all 4 casters available. If we were still able to take Durst, you'd see some interesting heavy spam lists. However the theme has only been really out for... 4-5 months? I think there is a lot of room for experimentation. Not taking a colossal can help with fitting in the very expensive solo and unit options in this theme.
Here are some battlegroups I've considered with a few of the casters:
Vlad3 with Drago and Purifiers. Drago goes up to DEF 15 when he's covered by one of these underrated light jacks. If you pop Enliven on him, that means he gets away from an enemy whether they hit him or miss him. Purifiers are also the best jack to benefit from the feat, which is typically laughably bad with our old jack options. You can Beat Back and Side Step for a full 3" on both initials, with either HoF or Infernal Machine, that makes these little jacks pretty potent surprise assassins. I've tried it before, the only thing I don't like about it is that you're pretty much completely dedicated as a melee list
Reznik2 with Destroyers, Juggernauts, and Scourge. Rat 6 Destroyers are pretty awesome, RAT 6 POW 16 Destroyers with Pow 9 Blast Damage is extremely juicy. Reznik2 really appreciates a 'jack that rarely needs help with it's own damage output, so the Juggernaut is a natural fit. A Victor is an alternative option I've considered to the Judicator, it's a hard sell, but putting down a 5" rough terrain template on top of something you've just Flesh is Weaked can be extremely crippling for your opponent.
Feora3 with Kodiaks+Ragers. There's a great symbiotic relationship here: the 'jacks can protect Feora3 and she has multiple damage multipliers to take advantage of the fact that both types of jacks essentially have 3 initials. Not only that, but Incite also works on Vent Steam and the Rager Explosions! I also really like the the idea of a Feora3 list with Hand of Judgement, 2 Repenters, and a max unit of Outriders. That's a lot of very powerful sprays.
Kreoss3. I'll admit that this is the caster I've thought the least about, simply because I think he is vastly better in other Protectorate themes and I don't think he offers anything too much to Khador players. I like Fire of Salvation a lot, and it would be cool to make a Righteous Vengeance list with all the Archons and Paladins. Destroyers could be interesting for a Force Hammer pop and drop assassination style list, but it's not something that he doesn't already have with Judicator and Redeemers.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Dec 11, 2019 22:13:06 GMT
I agree that it's very hard to get off the Judicator-train. It just does a little bit (or a lot) of everything. It doesn't help that it just has excellent synergy with all 4 casters available. If we were still able to take Durst, you'd see some interesting heavy spam lists. However the theme has only been really out for... 4-5 months? I think there is a lot of room for experimentation. Not taking a colossal can help with fitting in the very expensive solo and unit options in this theme. Here are some battlegroups I've considered with a few of the casters: Vlad3 with Drago and Purifiers. Drago goes up to DEF 15 when he's covered by one of these underrated light jacks. If you pop Enliven on him, that means he gets away from an enemy whether they hit him or miss him. Purifiers are also the best jack to benefit from the feat, which is typically laughably bad with our old jack options. You can Beat Back and Side Step for a full 3" on both initials, with either HoF or Infernal Machine, that makes these little jacks pretty potent surprise assassins. I've tried it before, the only thing I don't like about it is that you're pretty much completely dedicated as a melee list Reznik2 with Destroyers, Juggernauts, and Scourge. Rat 6 Destroyers are pretty awesome, RAT 6 POW 16 Destroyers with Pow 9 Blast Damage is extremely juicy. Reznik2 really appreciates a 'jack that rarely needs help with it's own damage output, so the Juggernaut is a natural fit. A Victor is an alternative option I've considered to the Judicator, it's a hard sell, but putting down a 5" rough terrain template on top of something you've just Flesh is Weaked can be extremely crippling for your opponent. Feora3 with Kodiaks+Ragers. There's a great symbiotic relationship here: the 'jacks can protect Feora3 and she has multiple damage multipliers to take advantage of the fact that both types of jacks essentially have 3 initials. Not only that, but Incite also works on Vent Steam and the Rager Explosions! I also really like the the idea of a Feora3 list with Hand of Judgement, 2 Repenters, and a max unit of Outriders. That's a lot of very powerful sprays. Kreoss3. I'll admit that this is the caster I've thought the least about, simply because I think he is vastly better in other Protectorate themes and I don't think he offers anything too much to Khador players. I like Fire of Salvation a lot, and it would be cool to make a Righteous Vengeance list with all the Archons and Paladins. Destroyers could be interesting for a Force Hammer pop and drop assassination style list, but it's not something that he doesn't already have with Judicator and Redeemers. In regards to Feora3 the Grolar should also be mentioned. P+S 24 and 21 on the hammer and fist respectively is pretty nutty.
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Post by Havock on Dec 11, 2019 23:12:56 GMT
Don't forget changing the gun from can't hit shit pewpew to BRRRRRRRRT
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