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Post by Havock on Oct 25, 2019 16:48:09 GMT
Another one: Give him the jack marshal abilities but battlegroup-wide.
He's still a FOCUS6 caster who blows most of his stack on mobility, but his jacks are efficient and scarier than they would otherwise be, both ranged and in melee.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 25, 2019 18:41:48 GMT
caine 3's feat as an upkeep
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Post by michael on Oct 25, 2019 18:53:01 GMT
So, Worse Synergy?
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Oct 25, 2019 19:08:52 GMT
Random thought: would giving Harkevich his old Mk.II card back fix him, or at least be a good start?
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 25, 2019 19:19:55 GMT
So, Worse Synergy? eh, would make broadsides better in khador. Jack em up to rat 7 pow 17 or so and broadsides
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Post by michael on Oct 25, 2019 20:48:19 GMT
Random thought: would giving Harkevich his old Mk.II card back fix him, or at least be a good start? He was fairly underwhelming in MK II. He had a moderately decent list composed of four Demolishers that played hard to win on scenario. But, still...
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Post by ozvelpoon on Oct 25, 2019 21:05:37 GMT
As strange as it sounds I like the idea of tooling him away from warjacks as his be all and end all.
Ideas in no perticular order: - Field Marshal: Counterblast - Field Marshal: +1 RoF - Elite Cadre (winterguard): Mark Target - Field Marshal: Clear! - Elite Cadre (winterguard): Bait the line - Field Marshal: Return fire
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Post by michael on Oct 25, 2019 21:08:43 GMT
So, Worse Synergy? eh, would make broadsides better in khador. Jack em up to rat 7 pow 17 or so and broadsides The limitation is the fact that our long-range shooting jacks are rather expensive on a per-shot basis, and all of them are just really expensive. Going complete bonkers gun-heavy, you could get seven Destroyers and, for four focus, get 14 shots a turn. But... I question whether that is sensible, especially given modern scenarios. I don’t know if a smaller battlegroup of, say, 4 ranged jacks with a mild ranged bonus is enough to make a caster.
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Post by michael on Oct 25, 2019 21:52:03 GMT
The old ideas are slowly churning to the surface...
That reminded me: the Alternate History Caster version of Cylena Raefyll (who was released around the time I did all my Hark testing way back when) actually ticked a lot of what I think a reworked Harkevich could be. It’s unfortunate that we can’t straight swap them!
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Post by borderprince on Oct 26, 2019 13:18:36 GMT
The old ideas are slowly churning to the surface... That reminded me: the Alternate History Caster version of Cylena Raefyll (who was released around the time I did all my Hark testing way back when) actually ticked a lot of what I think a reworked Harkevich could be. It’s unfortunate that we can’t straight swap them! Her feat would certainly be interesting in encouraging him to take Destroyers, Demolishers and maybe WG artillery. For those who don't pay much attention to non-tourney legal characters, the feat is +3 RAT, blast damage at full POW (and does not count as blast damage, so no Girded). Might be enough in itself to make Hark an interesting WGK caster. Gun Carriages hitting everything under their blasts with full POW could be really good. Khador doesn't have many ways of upping shooting damage (Vlad1 S&P; Butcher1 feat; Irusk2 FFE - any more?), so buffing that is different.
I get it. We already have Karchev as heavily focused on warjacks, but Hark's fluff has also always been in that direction. To make Hark interesting he needs to be very different to Karchev. The background has been about him getting his jacks to co-ordinate unusually well and ranged power. So abilities that focus on ranged jacks would be one way to go.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on Oct 27, 2019 10:01:13 GMT
Personally I'd change mobility for escort and change the spell bombshell for something actually useful, since the spell is unique to harkevich we can just change the spell itself and Imo it'd be good if bombshell was a target allied model/unit spell that turns blast damage to full and doesn't count as blast damage.
This would make harkevich good with winterguard artillery and bombardiers while also giving the chance for one jack to get a strong shot per round.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 27, 2019 11:12:49 GMT
Instead of talking specifics, maybe we should talk big picture. What does Hark do right now, and what SHOULD he do?
Right now he slightly supports shooting jacks, gives a bit of a threat range buff, and overall mobility buffs, plus a bit of survivability with the feat. He doesn't do anything for infantry and doesn't really have any aids to focus efficiency. He doesn't buff accuracy or damage or bring any control.
If he is to be a melee jack caster, how does he do it so he's different from (but not strictly better than) Karchev? Or for that matter Vlad 1, or even Old Witch 3? So what do melee jacks like? Speed and survivability, then possibly accuracy and damage. He already brings some speed (but possibly not enough) and survivability, plus pathfinder. Give him damage and/or accuracy buffs and he starts to tread on Karchev's toes. Don't and he doesn't work.
If he is to be a ranged jack caster, then... how the hell do we actually make that happen in Khador? Maybe just give him a bunch of Sloan's kit? He probably wouldn't be as good as Sloan.
If he is not to be a jack caster anymore, then... I dunno.
While it really doesn't work right now, I do think the "ranged jack caster" is at least a unique niche for him in Khador, and leaning into that might be the way to go. So what's the "big picture" for how he needs to work then? I don't really know, but he definitely needs to lose those 3 focus spells, while maintaining a higher volume of fire, but hopefully in a more accurate (and therefore meaningful) way.
I normally try to avoid wishlisting changes to models (therein lies disappointment), but I'm a little bored today so here goes. I feel like trading Broadside for something that lets jacks make an extra ranged attack DURING their activation, along with more focus efficiency in general so they can afford more boosts, is worth considering. How about losing Mobility and trading his "field marshal: reposition" for something that lets a jack advance 3" after OR BEFORE it's activation? Possibly with full-time Pathfinder like he used to have? That way he can have added threat range (but at the cost of not being able to repo afterwards), but also it means his jacks can move 3" and also aim before shooting (which works well with giving them extra in-activation shots rather than out-of-activation ones).
Alternate idea: play into the whole "Pathfinding" part of his fluff. Give him ways to create forests, perhaps make his jacks more survivable in rough terrain (I don't remember, is there ability that gives an additional +2 DEF in cover?) and/or give his jacks Treewalker (along with Pathfinder of course). Coupled with his Repo he'll be able to play hit-and-run games between the trees; he won't have crazy threat ranges or try to push stats to stupid high levels, but he will try to win the war of attrition using tactics and terrain in conjunction with Khador jack's naturally good stats.
For some reason I keep wondering if giving him Field Marshal: Point Blank could do something. It would make Decimators interesting as they would do more work in melee (and be able to push models while in melee, thus giving them more scenario relevance). Maybe combined with the forest stuff so he has Decimators hiding in forests, pushing models further away, then when the enemy closes with them they aren't awful what with three initial attacks? ... look, I just want Decimators to work, OK?
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Post by borderprince on Oct 27, 2019 13:58:59 GMT
Instead of talking specifics, maybe we should talk big picture. What does Hark do right now, and what SHOULD he do?...[Lots of sensible points]... Alternate idea: play into the whole "Pathfinding" part of his fluff. Give him ways to create forests, perhaps make his jacks more survivable in rough terrain (I don't remember, is there ability that gives an additional +2 DEF in cover?) and/or give his jacks Treewalker (along with Pathfinder of course). Coupled with his Repo he'll be able to play hit-and-run games between the trees; he won't have crazy threat ranges or try to push stats to stupid high levels, but he will try to win the war of attrition using tactics and terrain in conjunction with Khador jack's naturally good stats Part of the problem now is that in addition to thinking about a caster in relation to others (i.e. why Harkevich if you've got Karchev?) it's also worth thinking about themes. The pathfinder side of Harkevich was important in his fluff (and given how little the fluff moves on for most, still is important). The issue here is that pathfinder for jacks is now a theme benefit for all casters in Jaws of the Wolf. So you either focus on something in Harkevich which means you effectively lose the theme benefit, or are being (soft-)pushed into using him in different themes. (Similarly creating a forest, although that isn't an all or nothing like giving pathfinder or not.)
I don't think there's an easy answer to this, but it themes have to be something else to take into consideration.
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Post by michael on Oct 27, 2019 16:57:34 GMT
Personally I'd change mobility for escort and change the spell bombshell for something actually useful, since the spell is unique to harkevich we can just change the spell itself and Imo it'd be good if bombshell was a target allied model/unit spell that turns blast damage to full and doesn't count as blast damage. This would make harkevich good with winterguard artillery and bombardiers while also giving the chance for one jack to get a strong shot per round. Locke has Bombshell now too, as does...maybe somebody else.
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Post by michael on Oct 27, 2019 17:01:55 GMT
Instead of talking specifics, maybe we should talk big picture. What does Hark do right now, and what SHOULD he do? Right now he slightly supports shooting jacks, gives a bit of a threat range buff, and overall mobility buffs, plus a bit of survivability with the feat. He doesn't do anything for infantry and doesn't really have any aids to focus efficiency. He doesn't buff accuracy or damage or bring any control. If he is to be a melee jack caster, how does he do it so he's different from (but not strictly better than) Karchev? Or for that matter Vlad 1, or even Old Witch 3? So what do melee jacks like? Speed and survivability, then possibly accuracy and damage. He already brings some speed (but possibly not enough) and survivability, plus pathfinder. Give him damage and/or accuracy buffs and he starts to tread on Karchev's toes. Don't and he doesn't work. If he is to be a ranged jack caster, then... how the hell do we actually make that happen in Khador? Maybe just give him a bunch of Sloan's kit? He probably wouldn't be as good as Sloan. If he is not to be a jack caster anymore, then... I dunno. While it really doesn't work right now, I do think the "ranged jack caster" is at least a unique niche for him in Khador, and leaning into that might be the way to go. So what's the "big picture" for how he needs to work then? I don't really know, but he definitely needs to lose those 3 focus spells, while maintaining a higher volume of fire, but hopefully in a more accurate (and therefore meaningful) way. I normally try to avoid wishlisting changes to models (therein lies disappointment), but I'm a little bored today so here goes. I feel like trading Broadside for something that lets jacks make an extra ranged attack DURING their activation, along with more focus efficiency in general so they can afford more boosts, is worth considering. How about losing Mobility and trading his "field marshal: reposition" for something that lets a jack advance 3" after OR BEFORE it's activation? Possibly with full-time Pathfinder like he used to have? That way he can have added threat range (but at the cost of not being able to repo afterwards), but also it means his jacks can move 3" and also aim before shooting (which works well with giving them extra in-activation shots rather than out-of-activation ones). Alternate idea: play into the whole "Pathfinding" part of his fluff. Give him ways to create forests, perhaps make his jacks more survivable in rough terrain (I don't remember, is there ability that gives an additional +2 DEF in cover?) and/or give his jacks Treewalker (along with Pathfinder of course). Coupled with his Repo he'll be able to play hit-and-run games between the trees; he won't have crazy threat ranges or try to push stats to stupid high levels, but he will try to win the war of attrition using tactics and terrain in conjunction with Khador jack's naturally good stats. For some reason I keep wondering if giving him Field Marshal: Point Blank could do something. It would make Decimators interesting as they would do more work in melee (and be able to push models while in melee, thus giving them more scenario relevance). Maybe combined with the forest stuff so he has Decimators hiding in forests, pushing models further away, then when the enemy closes with them they aren't awful what with three initial attacks? ... look, I just want Decimators to work, OK? Ha! Field Marshal: Point Blank was on my list of things to test way back when! I have not revisited the idea in quite a while. The whole reason I came up with it was the fact that I was frustrated by the utter schism in the way Victor used to play, and I wanted a way to make the Flare shot useful. Revisiting the whole “what is Harkevich’s concept?” discussion: everything we had on him from the fluff really reminded me of the way Anson Durst plays on the table. Maybe we could trade with the Protectorate?
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