Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496 
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Post by Growl on Sept 14, 2019 2:56:52 GMT
I have made my way back to Warmachine/Hordes, after dabbling in Cryx and Minions for a while, and then being totally out of the game for several months as well. Having gained a renewed sense of enthusiasm for my first faction, and stumbling through some remedial games, I decided to try my hand again at posting some of my battles, hopefully to spur conversation and the exchange of ideas, as well as study and learn from my mistakes as well as my occasional successes... Vlad 2 vs Arkadius Theme: Wolves of Winter 75 / 75 Army Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Demolisher - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Fenris - PC: 8 - Fenris (Continued) Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 THEME: Wolves of Winter Theme: Will Work For Food 75 / 75 Army Dr. Arkadius - WB: +32 - Targ - PC: 3 - Battle Boar - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Road Hog - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15) - Road Hog - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Road Hog - PC: 15 - War Hog - PC: 14 - War Hog - PC: 14 Underchief Mire - PC: 4 - Ironback Spitter - PC: 14 Swamp Gobber River Raider - PC: 1 Hermit of Henge Hold - PC: 0 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 0 Gatorman Witch Doctor - PC: 0 Gatorman Husk - PC: 3 Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew - Leader & 1 Grunt: 2 THEME: Will Work For Food This was my first time trying out my K.E.D.S., Kayazy Eliminators Delivery System, that I mentioned in one of the other threads here. I am not saying or implying that the Murder Girls are invulnerable under this system, but I do believe they will hard to remove, though there are some particular match ups where they can still be quite easily killed. I won the roll to go first and uncharacteristically chose to go first, in hindsight, I think this list works better going second... DEPLOYMENT
 The black circle terrain on the right side with the green marker is an acid pool. KHADORI wanted to have the Demolisher as central as possible, with the Eliminators near by. I tried to leave some space with my Doomreaver deployments for the Demolisher to trample through. MINIONS
Arkadius deploys in a block with his warbeasts spread evenly. TURN 1KHADORSo I want to get my Demolisher up field and as centrally as possible and like wise press up with my Reavers on either side to push the lines of engagement back, while limiting, ideally, the number of easy kills I can give Arkadius. I try to keep my models from being too clumped up, avoid the dangerous terrain, and try to stay out of easy charge range. The Ternion put clouds on the Eliminators and the Demolisher. Vlad puts Arcane Might on himself, HOF on the Outriders, and Assail on the Demolisher, before moving up. The Demolisher tramples forward 10" and the Eliminators run up to either side of him B2B, each of them is clouded.  MINIONSHighlights of the Minion turn are that the Spitter on the Left with an extra shot from the Targ shoots 2 blasts at the left Doomreavers, corroding one, who toughed and drifting the wrong way on the second shot. The Spitter also put up Counter Blast. Arkadius put up Guardian Beast, and Forced Evo on one of the Heavies. The Swamp Gobbers run up and Mire puts 2 clouds on them. Two things to note; I took the picture before Orin moved, and the Menoth model near the front is actually a proxy for the Hermit.  TURN 2
KHADORI wanted to try to jam up as much of the Minion force as i could. Unfortunately the Guardian beast and Counterblast blunted some of my attacks, but I was able to put some good damage on the left most Battleboar. One of three Windblasts got rid of Mire's clouds and I was able to kill the Bellows crew. I put one damage on the Hermit. I forgot to move my Outriders. The Ternions clouded my group again, with the Eliminators setting up a landing spot for the Demolisher to trample to. Koldun lords did their no shooting thing. Vlad, with Pathfinder from the Objective kept pace with the army.  MINIONSSo some big moves this turn by Arkadius! I was completely taken by surprise by how many models Arkadius and his beasts could kill on his FEAT turn. All but 2 of my Doomreavers were killed, Fenris was unhorsed, and I had a Road Hog in my face! I really need to work on the placement of my models to avoid getting Pac-maned up by Overtaking and Berserking beasts. On the bright side, he really wasn't able to shoot anything... Orin Midwinter did use a power token to boost a chain lightning into the back of the hermit, doing one damage and getting 2 more Doomreavers. Two huge takeaways from this turn though; 1. Sorry the picture is not more clear, but the Minion clock is down to 2:49 and my clock is at 24:19. 2. Arkadius is on 2 FURY and is 12.5" away from one Eliminator and 13" away from the other one... Khador - 1, Minions - 1  TURN 3
KHADOROk, so I have some challenges. Do I try to play the clock game? Stay safe and try to win on time? I think I can do better than try to wait it out though, and so go for my plan... I can get both Eliminators on Arkadius, but he has 2 transfers, and the damn Hermit can block one attack. I have to kill the Hermit and if I can put some damage on Arkadius to soak up a transfer if I can. I drop Assail and upkeep Arcane Might and HOF. The Ternion move up and Blast away at the Hermit, who saves himself with his special ability that stops damage. I finish off the Hermit with a blast from a Koldun Lord. In hindsight, that actually was unnecessary because once he had used his no damage ability, he didn't matter anymore. Vlad moves up and FEATS, getting 6 targets, the Eliminators, the 3 Outriders, and one Koldun Lord on the left. The Outriders with 12 SPD, walk up and put sprays on Arkadius. Orin blocks 2, one works, but I roll poorly and don't even hit him. I finally charge my Eliminators. The first one hits and eats up a transfer, side steps to the back and eats up another transfer, getting a boost on damage from Vlad's Arcane Might. The second Eliminator boosts both attack rolls and the second damage roll from Vlad, and kills Arkadius!!! VICTORY FOR THE EMPRESS!!! THOUGHTSSo, I think the strong part of this list is that the threats can come from several directions. Of course I should take better care of my Doomreavers, but in the end, I think it would be very hard to kill so many of them and still stop the Eliminators. If someone focuses on the Eliminators, I think that the efforts that they would typically need to go to to remove them, would likely leave many Doomreavers around to wreak havoc themselves later. If the opponent holds back with their caster to stay out of range of the Eliminators, then they rapidly give up on the scenario. Again, I am not saying that this is the be all and end all of Khador strategies, but I think it has real legs. |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 14, 2019 14:45:21 GMT
Thanks for the battle report. Growl, it’s nice to see you playing Khador again and I enjoyed your batrep. Nice pictures, and congrats on the victory. It’s enjoyable to see just how damn effective the murder girls are on feat turn. A couple of questions and possible observations. I think you’re almost ALWAYS better off going first with a Doomreaver list because of how much pressure they put on scenario, and how far they threaten. One of the things I do is to to get a few doomreavers out as far as they go without committing suicide on my first turn. I’m OK losing a couple of them if it means important models on his side need to walk and shoot instead of gain board position, especially if the shots aren’t high probability, or if it puts his pieces within threat range of an apparating unit on my turn. On your turn 1 (without being able to measure your and his threat ranges), I’m thinking that you want to apparate one of your right side Doomreavers, put a couple of clouds on them, and get at least two all the way up to the wall which looks like it might be within 14” (if you apparate and run in a straight line). That puts DEF 17 doomreavers right up into his grill that can apparate the following turn if he doesn’t clear them out. I have a similar question regarding whether you might have been able to take a third doomreaver, put a cloud on it, and run it up adjacent to (instead of beind) the cloud on the right side. I think in his list you’re worrying about a 16” threat AOE 4 (so don’t clump up behind the wall - I’m fine if you lose one dude to a lucky shot but don’t lose two), and an 17” threat SP 10 from the Road Hog. Now, if he Assaults a Road Hog or two to take out a doomreaver or two that you’ve left out as bait, then he’s put some super valuable pieces out where you can apparate and couterattack with prejudice. If he plays tentative, than you laugh at him as you dominate scenario. On Turn 2, when I saw the picture of what you did, I said to myself (before reading your write up), “Oh, shit, he’s about to lose most of his army.” Which you did. Ouch. I think you lost too much on this turn without getting enough in return. Luckily, you had just enough to get the job done on your feat turn, which is one of the amazing advantages of this list — you have so many models that can just kill you dead. Go back and replay Turn 2 in your head. What would you have done differently to end Turn 2 either with(A) a better attrition advantage, or (B) a board state that allows you to either dominate the scenario on Turn 3 if your opponent doesn’t commit, or to simply wreck face and potentially still be dominating scenario if he doesn’t commit. In this setup, it looks like you more or less ignored scenario and went for assassination and clock as your primary win conditions (for instance, I don’t think you even have a model to score your own square zone on Turn 2.) But think about this with this scenario. On the bottom of 2, I think both sides should be scoring their own square zones. On a different Turn 3 which was not your Turn 3, with Alexia in the list you have enough pieces to be scoring all 3 flags (especially if Alexia is a bit more central), your square zone, and then killing his objective while denying him the chance to score his square zone. You weren’t set up to do this but I’m interested to know if you think you could have been. From the pictures, I couldn’t quite figure out if Alexia was collecting souls and spitting out solos, but I would have thought that she could have been pumping out some dudes to help you especially on your assassination run. Overall, looks like a fun game, and you did a nice job keeping your eliminators alive and in position to get the job done with some help from her friends. |
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Sept 14, 2019 16:27:55 GMT
Thanks for the thoughts and the reply. I didn't play Alexia? Did you mean Fenris? I did score my rectangle zone on Turn 2, and was thinking about the scenario play from Turn 3 onward; I would have used Fenris to clear and take the Left Flag, keep Vlad in the Zone to score that, uses Jacks to clear the pigs in the center and run a koldun lord to the center flag, and run something to the enemy zone to contest. If all went well, I would have been at 4-1 with my opponent having very little clock left. I did think that it was a bit risky though, and actually thought I had a better shot of assassination and so went for it in the end. You mentioned putting clouds on the Doomreavers, I thought you couldn't do this? One big miscalculation I made was being worried about Arkadius' FEAT, and misjudging what he could do with it. Arkadius can choose the frenzy target that is in his control, so really only a 20" threat from deployment. So I could have had better board position on turn 1, and you're exactly right about getting myself to the wall, that would have been a much smarter play. Regarding my really bad Turn 2 positioning, I have such a difficult time envisioning and plotting out what good positioning would be like? I guess I need to have like 3 lines? Line one with like one or two models, like 4+ inches apart, then line 2 like 4" past them, and line three can be more tightly packed? Command ranges start getting weird too.
Do you think I should be using Alexia rather than Fenris?
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Post by michael on Sept 14, 2019 17:04:00 GMT
I hope you downloaded the latest War Room...  The Ternion’s clouds now say “choose”, so they don’t target Doom Reqvers and this can be put on them. |
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Sept 14, 2019 19:53:19 GMT
michael Holy Shivan Dragon! That is so weird and a rule that I never, EVER, would have noticed! That's pretty cool!
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 14, 2019 20:05:54 GMT
michael Holy Shivan Dragon! That is so weird and a rule that I never, EVER, would have noticed! That's pretty cool! Yeah, you can place the clouds on Fenris and Doomreavers now. Key pro tip! Re Fenris: he’s good, but I think I like Alexia better for improved scenario play. There’s nothing like being able to recycle your weapon masters for other weapon masters. And this list wants disposable solos to camp flags. I completely read past that you included Fenris in the list and in the photos just assumed the horse was Alexia. If you swap Fenris out for Alexia then that would free one more point up for your battle group. |
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Post by auraco on Sept 14, 2019 22:19:36 GMT
While I like Alexia2 a lot, I still think Fenris is better than her with Vlad, he does absolutely nothing for her, but fenris can get good mileage out of arcane might, just for that I think it’s worth it.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Sept 14, 2019 23:46:09 GMT
Switching out Fenris to put Alexa left me with one point... if I drop an escort I have 4pts, take one koldun lord out of requisition choices and use the 4pts for that, and use the last requisition slot for another ternion unit...
War Room Army
Khador - Vlad2 Wolves Obliv (copy)
Theme: Wolves of Winter
75 / 75 Army
Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27
- Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4
- Demolisher - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16)
- Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
Koldun Lord - PC: 0
Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7
- Thrall Warrior
Koldun Lord - PC: 4
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
- Greylord Escort - PC: 3
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
Greylord Outriders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10
Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0
Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0
THEME: Wolves of Winter
The only thing I worry about then is losing out on one more option for pathfinder, though with the apparition move, it might not be that big a deal?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 15, 2019 1:07:14 GMT
While I like Alexia2 a lot, I still think Fenris is better than her with Vlad, he does absolutely nothing for her, but fenris can get good mileage out of arcane might, just for that I think it’s worth it. I would sooner add both than drop Alexia. Something like this... War Room Army Khador - Vlad Wolves Bosom Buddies Theme: Wolves of Winter 75 / 75 Army Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Fenris - PC: 8 - Fenris (Continued) Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 |
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Sept 15, 2019 1:18:58 GMT
@armchair warrior, It’s a good list of course, a nice mix of things and all, but I’m still going for my Demolisher Kayazy Eliminator combo!
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Sept 21, 2019 3:00:42 GMT
VLAD2 vs RASKSo I revised my list thanks to several of your suggestions, and I think it looks really solid. I faced of against my Minions friend and a spin of his new Rask list. Khador - Vlad2 Wolves Obliv 2Ternion Theme: Wolves of Winter 75 / 75 Army Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Demolisher - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire - PC: 7 - Thrall Warrior Koldun Lord - PC: 4 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 - Greylord Escort - PC: 3 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 THEME: Wolves of Winter Minions - New Army Theme: Will Work For Food 75 / 75 Army Rask - WB: +27 - Targ - PC: 3 - Bull Snapper - PC: 5 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Ironback Spitter - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Swamp Horror - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Blackhide Wrastler - PC: 16 Brun Cragback - Cragback & Lug: 16 - Lug Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress - PC: 4 Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor - PC: 5 Rorsh - Rorsh & Brine: 15 - Brine Thrullg - PC: 5 Bog Trog Mist Speaker - PC: 4 Efaarit Scouts - PC: 0 Efaarit Scouts - PC: 0 Hermit of Henge Hold - PC: 0 THEME: Will Work For Food DEPLOYMENTKHADORI skew my deployment towards the left, with the one Doomreaver unit with the escort lined up to head towards the rubble terrain near the middle of the table. (It is the black terrain with the crater on it. Likewise the black terrain with the fire on it to the right is burning earth and the water terrain with the green plastic piece on the left is an acid pool.) I throw one unit out to the right, looking to keep the minions honest, get to that wall, and maybe press in from the right. The Eliminators and Demolisher are somewhat central, ready to do their thing. The Ternion units are center and left. MINIONSRask spreads out with all of his beasts and the scouts on either flank. The Junior Warlocks are on the right.  TURN 1KHADORLong story short, I want to press forward as best I can, fearing an early FEAT by Rask and not wanting to give in on scenario too easily. The Reavers on the right apparate and run to the wall. I hug the central building with another. Cloud some others and try to stay out of easy shooting range of the Spitter. I press in on the left. The Assailed Demolisher tramples forward and the Eliminators tuck in with their clouds as well. Along with Assail, Vlad HOFs the Outriders and Arcane Mights himself and charges to the wall.  MINIONSRask decides not to FEAT this turn, which I think was a mistake... he takes shots with his Scouts and kills a couple of things. Scatters a Spitter blast and then another thanks to Targ, killing or corroding some Reavers. Thrullg is annoying and kills a Reaver. Counter Blast is on the Spitter. Rask is on Zero camp...  TURN 2KHADORSo it's not great, but I feel like I need to take advantage of what I can. I jam on the right, get a couple of whacks on the Hermit. The Reavers around the house kill the Thrullg and jam the Scout and Lug. Vlad moves forward, puts down two Wind Blasts and FEATS, only getting the 4 Doomreavers with the Escort. They get Pathfinder and run/charge, one engages the Spitter, but stays out of range of his melee, foiling his Counterblast. I get one charge on Orin and 3 on the Wrastler. The Hermit saves the Wrastler, and the Reaver who kills Orin berserks on to Rask, boosting damage on the Spiny Growthed Rask, and doing 13?. If the Hermit didn't save the Wrastler, I would have had another berserk strike at Rask... oh well. NB. I also didn't realize that Rask has sac pawn or whatever for the Bogtrog, so I wouldn't have killed him anyway. I try to go for a long shot spray with an Outrider, but miss Rask. The Reavers on the left press forward. The Demolisher and Eliminators take a central position. Both Koldun Lords move up and "No Shoot", the right one takes the central flag. Alexia with 3 souls, takes the Central flag too and pop oout 3 Thrall Warriors. Only one can charge the Wrastler, but I miss. One Thrall takes the right Flag, the other the Left.  MINIONSRask FEATS this turn, has trouble killing my super Doomreavers, clears up some on the right, contests the Flags. The picture is not so clear, but unfortunately, I only have like 9 minutes on my clock, I think Minions has like 19? Khador - 1, Minions - 0 
TURN 3
KHADORI move the right Doomreavers against Brine to free up the injured Hermit, and kill him with the Ternions. Unfortunately his death stops Alexia from doing more Thralls. Alexia can still run though, so she takes the Right flag. The Demolisher, which was disrupted by Rask last turn, Bulldozes the Wrastler back. Arcane Mighted Reavers on the Left kill the Scout there. So I am able to score 4 and win 5-0.  THOUGHTS
Yeah, Alexia is great! For her scenario play, back door strikes etc., she adds a lot. Clearly Rask should have FEATED turn 1, but I think I still have more swords in this fight. I could have half jammed and stayed safe and then used my FEAT to more devastating effect. All in all, I was happy with how I played this one.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 21, 2019 11:37:40 GMT
I really like your board position at the end of Turn 1. Your opponent definitely made a mistake by not feating, and you abused him for sitting on it.
Nice.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Sept 21, 2019 15:02:29 GMT
Thanks @armchair warrior (lol I don't know how to @ you properly?) I was trying to press on Turn 1 as best I could so that even if he FEATED, that I would still be able to walk and strike, or at least jam, if he moved aggressively, or if he sat back and FEATED, that I would have board advantage. I was worried that only having one Escort would hurt me with terrain, and while it still could, I think with apparate and the Doomreavers overall speed, that I can play around it.
Thanks for reading.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 21, 2019 21:05:56 GMT
Growl, too funny. I think you @ me with “thearmchariwarrior” with no spaces. I think you’re going to be fine with only one UA until you’re not! At some point you’re going to face something like Primal Terrors or Kreoss 2 Exemplars and say to yourself, “Damn...I wish I had more anti-tough” at the same time you’re trying to charge over a wall or through a forest. Just saying. If you find yourself saying that, you might be OK dropping a unit of Ternion, making the Koldun free, and stuffing in one more UA. Of course, that frees up a point to add in Destroyer, or abandon your “no blast zone” kit and upgrade to Ruin. But that’s for another day. In the meantime, I’m happy to see at least one Komrade get a Demolisher onto the table!
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The Ternion’s clouds now say “choose”, so they don’t target Doom Reqvers and this can be put on them.