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Post by charlzheimer on Sept 13, 2019 14:21:46 GMT
so i'll keep it short.
I have been playing Helga alot lately and have a abysmall track record with her. this is mostly due to sheer bad luck.
botching the assasination run due to subpar dice beeing the biggest cause for it.
not beeing able to kill a knocked down arm16 no focus/fury caster sucks the first time. it just is insulting after the 8th.
i am looking to break the monotony of my shitluck streak by playing a different warlock.
here's the thing. i'm tired of arkadius and midas. i can make midas work (most of the time) and i would love to be challenged again with strum and drang and carver.
thing is...i don't want croc models. i stick to pure bacon due to fluff reasons (but mostly financial reasons).
any advice on building a good carver and strum and drang list?
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corvius
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by corvius on Sept 13, 2019 14:48:25 GMT
What is your list? I would also like to know what you own to help minimize purchases.
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Post by charlzheimer on Sept 13, 2019 16:01:47 GMT
What is your list? I would also like to know what you own to help minimize purchases. currently got no real lists. i own every option available in the thornfall alliance atleast TWICE. with the exception of the archons, gobber chefs and hutchukk.
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on Sept 13, 2019 20:11:16 GMT
I've never been able to build a list I like with sturm and drang in thornfall, so I'll talk about carver. Since oblivion opened up thornfall, playing carver in it is a bit more viable. You still probably want him running neast heavy though since he does a lot more for them than he does infantry. An important consideration for any Carver list is how you are going to protect him be cause he often at best as 2 camp, and sometimes none. The trenches can help but positioning doesnt always allow it.
A list I made but haven't had the chance to try yet is:
War Room Army
Minions - Carver Thornfall
Theme: The Thornfall Alliance 75 / 75 Army
Lord Carver, BMMD, Esq. III - WB: +28 - War Hog - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - War Hog - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Road Hog - PC: 15 - Road Hog - PC: 15 - Battle Boar - PC: 7
Alten Ashley - PC: 0 Efaarit Scouts - PC: 0 Efaarit Scouts - PC: 0 Rorsh - Rorsh & Brine: 15 - Brine Swamp Gobber Chef - PC: 1 Swamp Gobber Chef - PC: 1
Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Farrow Bone Grinders - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5
THEME: The Thornfall Alliance ---
GENERATED : 09/13/2019 15:05:51 BUILD ID : 2089.19-07-18
The alten/scout boat can probably change to suit your solo preference, but it brings decent armor, moves decently fast, with shieldguards to help protect you beasts and Carver on the way in. Valkyries hit really hard under carvers feat and so do bone grinders if they hit a warbeast. The grinders are mostly there to act as magic weapons and extra grievous wounds or simply to block LoS to carver depending on the matchup.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Sept 14, 2019 4:41:08 GMT
So I really love S&D , but working in thornfall with them is rough. WWFF and just protecting key pieces still is king and this list feels fairly ok to positive to play around with. Theme: Will Work For Food
Sturm & Drang - WB: +28 - Targ - PC: 3 - War Hog - PC: 14 - War Hog - PC: 14 - Battle Boar - PC: 7 Meat Thresher - PC: 16 Rorsh - Rorsh & Brine: 15 - Brine Brun Cragback - Cragback & Lug: 16 - Lug Hermit of Henge Hold - PC: 0 Feralgeist - PC: 0 Feralgeist - PC: 0 Feralgeist - PC: 0 Boomhowler, Solo Artist - PC: 0 Swamp Gobber River Raider - PC: 1 Swamp Gobber River Raider - PC: 1 Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8 Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
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Post by charlzheimer on Sept 14, 2019 13:52:57 GMT
I've never been able to build a list I like with sturm and drang in thornfall, so I'll talk about carver. Since oblivion opened up thornfall, playing carver in it is a bit more viable. You still probably want him running neast heavy though since he does a lot more for them than he does infantry. An important consideration for any Carver list is how you are going to protect him be cause he often at best as 2 camp, and sometimes none. The trenches can help but positioning doesnt always allow it. A list I made but haven't had the chance to try yet is: War Room Army Minions - Carver Thornfall The alten/scout boat can probably change to suit your solo preference, but it brings decent armor, moves decently fast, with shieldguards to help protect you beasts and Carver on the way in. Valkyries hit really hard under carvers feat and so do bone grinders if they hit a warbeast. The grinders are mostly there to act as magic weapons and extra grievous wounds or simply to block LoS to carver depending on the matchup. bone grinder walls can help with initial line of sight. the more shots you can divert the better. not to mention that blocking a charge lane is still king even if they can get "trampled". (seriously almost nobody does that) legit curious why you'd bring brun and lugg and the solo artist? no i can get why boomhowler 2 but is he really that good? ---------------- EDIT: i think the real questions i should be asking are these. I want to create a army that uses both Strum AND Drang. and how do i get the most out of carver. i know carver likes infantry but his entire spell list is focused on warbeasts. the list posted by bacon give me a good idea of how to run carver. but SnD...how do i go building around that? cuz you can make an army that Strum can protect, but i don't like the idea of neglecting drang, if anything i'd love to make a list that allows for a alpha with DRANG and then use the feat to prevent propper retaliation.
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corvius
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by corvius on Sept 15, 2019 1:06:25 GMT
Here is my take on a pure Farrow list for Carver:
War Room Army
Minions - New Army
Theme: The Thornfall Alliance 75 / 75 Army
Lord Carver, BMMD, Esq. III - WB: +28 - Targ - PC: 3 - War Hog - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - War Hog - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Splatter Boar - PC: 8 - Splatter Boar - PC: 8 - Battle Boar - PC: 7 - Battle Boar - PC: 7 Meat Thresher - PC: 16 Maximus - PC: 0 Farrow Razorback Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 Farrow Razorback Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 Farrow Slaughterhousers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Farrow Slaughterhousers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9 Farrow Valkyries - Leader & 2 Grunts: 8
THEME: The Thornfall Alliance ---
GENERATED : 09/14/2019 21:00:29 BUILD ID : 2089.19-07-18
The idea is to use the battle engine and the clouds from Splatter Boars to deliver your army for the feat. Use the weapon crews and BE to hit things you want to have the Slaughterhousers carve up.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Sept 15, 2019 7:05:57 GMT
Boomhowler2 actually has a pretty amazing kit to utilize with a lot of casters. All the fell calls have a usage but the biggest one for me is handing literally anything repo 3. S&D with repo 3 lets them move aggressively for spells or charges then repo back to a safer spot. Any of the heavy beasts to get in and out. Even on himself of walk up, drop the covering fire to shut down a lane then repo back to a flag. Cacophony as well just shuts down certain lists and has good uses.
Brun and Lug I feel are so under represented for how amazing they really are. Countercharge and return allow for really tricky out of activation movement shenanigans. Stonehold just says no to opponents. Bear hands for clears. They just work really well as a defensive pair that S&D can help defend or extend.
I hate to say it also, but in all my years and games of S&D I have maybe used drang 3 times. And 2 of those times sturm would have been actively better. Killing floor and pack hunters... just isn’t good enough to warrant what you lose out on. The pathfinder isn’t necessary with so many ways to give it or some of the farrow infantry picking it up as well. Free charges are ok but losing out on the upkeeps and tk ( which is probably the best spell in the game) is just so much. Sturm with Tk alphas better even and still gets good work done with the brain burn. Building around both is just so hard since there aren’t really any models that benefit from both sides amazingly well.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 15, 2019 23:17:05 GMT
There's some quality synergy between Boomhowler, Sturm, and Brun and Lug too. Lug can charge a target to knock them down with a boosted Mat 7 attack, then Return to Brun. Then Repo another 3". Then be TK'd another 2". 10" of post-attack movement gives an enormous amount of flexibility and works well with Sturm's preferred playstyle of doing consistent, small amounts of damage to the enemy while controlling what they can do in return.
Unfortunately, when it comes to Sturm and Drang, I think the Soul Slave at minimum is basically required for them to function. Without a Soul Slave, Sturm often has to choose between either Deceleration or 1-2 TKs after paying for his upkeeps. With a Soul Slave, on the other hand, Sturm can comfortably upkeep both spells, cast Deceleration, and still get two TKs in play.
And, frankly, the Soul Slave is also the only reason I ever change to Drang on the rare occasions that I do. Drang has two big problems when it comes to delivering an "alpha" of any kind. The first is that he doesn't offer that much to his army to make his alpha particularly impressive. +2 Mat and free charges for his battlegroup are all useful, but not setting the world on fire. The other problem is that his threat range is shorter than Sturm's. Without TK he's threatening at minimum 2" less, 4" less in critical conditions (and if you're making offensive TKs then you're also getting +2 Mat against that target, further diminishing Drang's utility). The consequence is that Drang isn't the alpha hitter, because often you physically can't reach your targets if you swap to Drang. That relegates him to the role of clean-up, not alpha. You have to have made the alpha, survived the retaliation, and have enough of your opponent's army within range and to be of a high enough Defence that Drang feels worthwhile, all while bearing in mind the loss of durability from forfeiting Polarity Shield, Vision, and Shield Guards.
So, all of that said, what can we actually do with Drang? Melee anti-infantry Warbeasts are basically the only real beneficiaries of Drang's toolset, since the +2 Mat can be replicated if necessary by an offensive TK or any one of a number of knockdown/debuff tools if you're only worried about a single target. That means you're going to want multiple Battle Boars if you want a strong incentive to swap to Drang. Once upon a time I'd have suggested considering Slaughterhousers if you were insistent on avoiding any and all Gator models, but now that they have the Pathfinder on charges element anyway so Bone Grinders are the only pig infantry he supports in any material fashion.
Do you want this Sturm list to be an all-rounder? Because I think the basic components (you'll want a Meat Thresher because you basically need a huge base to make anything out of Sturm's spell list, plus the aforementioned multiple Battle Boars) pushes you heavily towards a tailored anti-infantry list.
Lord Carver is a bit easier at least. You can build an Arkadius list and swap the Warlock and have a decent list. Not as good as Arkadius, but it'll work ok.
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Post by charlzheimer on Sept 17, 2019 11:27:24 GMT
first of all i'd like to thank you all for the feedback and advice given. it had made me come to terms that maybe i should just begin expanding my minnions army a bit and find extra "non bacon" models. i decided to fiddle a bit and build 2 lists of my own using the 2 forementioned casters, mostly using models i have and those i like. (valkyries man. friggen love em) i have these models (mostly) or am able to get away with a proxy. conflictchamber.com/?cb201b_-2m0_fy0M0M0L0L0YeMeM4k7F0S0SjDjD___-2nbZfy0M0M0L0LjWpk4kdL7FfFjDjDhYMinions [Theme] The Thornfall Alliance [Carver 1] Lord Carver, BMMD, Esq. III [+28] - Battle Boar [7] - Gun Boar [8] - Gun Boar [8] - War Hog [14] - War Hog [14] - Targ [3] Farrow Razorback Crew [0(4)] Farrow Razorback Crew [0(4)] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [0(4)] Rorsh [15] Farrow Slaughterhousers [9] Farrow Slaughterhousers [9] Farrow Valkyries [8] Farrow Valkyries [8] Minions [Theme] Will Work For Food !!! This army contains a pre-release entry. [Sturm 1 & Drang 1] Sturm & Drang [+28] - Battle Boar [7] - Gun Boar [8] - Gun Boar [8] - War Hog [14] - War Hog [14] - Gatorman Soul Slave [0(5)] Boomhowler, Solo Artist [0(6)] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4] Raluk Moorclaw, the Ironmonger [0(4)] Rorsh [15] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Farrow Valkyries [8] Farrow Valkyries [8] Meat Thresher [16] --- originally had efaarit scouts instead of the razor crew though since they are solo's and are quite handy with your slaughter housers.
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Post by Azahul on Sept 17, 2019 22:59:14 GMT
I think the Sturm and Drang list is a good compromise If I have one suggestion, it's that I'd consider swapping Raluk for either Eilish or Orin. Being able to shut down/remove spell effects, and having the option to give Lanyssa Puppet Master for those critical spells, are probably going to be more valuable than repairing damage on the Meat Thresher. I might personally be inclined to run Carver a little heavier on the Warbeast front, but if the pair's dynamic is based on playing Sturm into infantry and Carver into armour then I think the infantry you've chosen make for a good balance
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Post by charlzheimer on Sept 18, 2019 8:00:41 GMT
I think the Sturm and Drang list is a good compromise If I have one suggestion, it's that I'd consider swapping Raluk for either Eilish or Orin. Being able to shut down/remove spell effects, and having the option to give Lanyssa Puppet Master for those critical spells, are probably going to be more valuable than repairing damage on the Meat Thresher. I might personally be inclined to run Carver a little heavier on the Warbeast front, but if the pair's dynamic is based on playing Sturm into infantry and Carver into armour then I think the infantry you've chosen make for a good balance knowing myself i'll end up gooing to a tourney with helga and someone else so i might just change that carver list. helga is cursed for me though. soooo Firetrucking cursed. will also try and make a more beasty carver list.
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Post by charlzheimer on Oct 8, 2019 8:27:47 GMT
another DUMB idea i had. since farrow commando's have native ambush now. i sorta had this dumb idea of running 2 units and trying to PINCER the opponent. using a gun heavy list that suddenly will allow your opponent to be flanked by commando's who can hit pretty hard if need be. just not sure if i should go helga or midas for it since both support infantry rather well. the ideas look like this. conflictchamber.com/?cb201b_-2mev0M0M0Mfz0YeMeMfQfQ4g4g0S0SjDjD___-2mcU0M0M0Mfz0YeMeMfQfQ4g4g0S0SjDjDMinions [Theme] The Thornfall Alliance [Helga 1] Helga the Conqueror [+29] - Gun Boar [8] - Gun Boar [8] - Gun Boar [8] - Splatter Boar [8] - Targ [3] Efaarit Scouts [0(6)] Efaarit Scouts [0(6)] Farrow Commandos (max) [15] Farrow Commandos (max) [15] Farrow Razorback Crew [0(5)] Farrow Razorback Crew [5] Farrow Slaughterhousers [9] Farrow Slaughterhousers [9] Farrow Valkyries [8] Farrow Valkyries [8] Minions [Theme] The Thornfall Alliance [Midas 1] Midas [+30] - Gun Boar [8] - Gun Boar [8] - Gun Boar [8] - Splatter Boar [8] - Targ [3] Efaarit Scouts [0(6)] Efaarit Scouts [0(6)] Farrow Commandos (max) [15] Farrow Commandos (max) [15] Farrow Razorback Crew [0(5)] Farrow Razorback Crew [5] Farrow Slaughterhousers [9] Farrow Slaughterhousers [9] Farrow Valkyries [8] Farrow Valkyries [8] now midas would make the slaughter housers and the valkyries hit like a mofo, be able to revive a lost beastie and allow armor cracking by his calamity spell. helga could ensure the arrival of the housers due to the speed increase, prevent warbeast alpha's or returning fire (albeit risky for her) ontop her feat could allow for funky shenanigans with those flanking commando's. perhaps i should go minimum commando's though. any feedback?
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Post by Azahul on Oct 9, 2019 2:58:25 GMT
I think I lean towards Helga, but more because her Feat would let you feed models to the Commandos more so than the expectation that the Commandos would ever get Feat attacks off themselves. Minimum Commandos are probably stronger because, well, you're spending fewer points on Commandos. It also lets you get a few more bodies down in the middle of the table, which both lists feel a little light on. The biggest problem with the Helga list is the lack of a good Defender's Ward target (beyond herself, which is certainly a valid choice). I'd try subbing out two of the lights for a War Hog I think. It both gives the list some back-up hitting power in case the Slaughterhousers get taken out, and it gives you something that will likely benefit from Defender's Ward early game. That said this still means running Helga without River Raiders which I just... don't like. River Raiders are entirely too much fun
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Post by charlzheimer on Oct 9, 2019 9:01:24 GMT
I think I lean towards Helga, but more because her Feat would let you feed models to the Commandos more so than the expectation that the Commandos would ever get Feat attacks off themselves. Minimum Commandos are probably stronger because, well, you're spending fewer points on Commandos. It also lets you get a few more bodies down in the middle of the table, which both lists feel a little light on. The biggest problem with the Helga list is the lack of a good Defender's Ward target (beyond herself, which is certainly a valid choice). I'd try subbing out two of the lights for a War Hog I think. It both gives the list some back-up hitting power in case the Slaughterhousers get taken out, and it gives you something that will likely benefit from Defender's Ward early game. That said this still means running Helga without River Raiders which I just... don't like. River Raiders are entirely too much fun i definently agree on the sentiment that i should go for min commando's. i played the helga list as is yesterday night (not sure why since the entire point of this topic is that i got tired of losing with helga but once i arrived at the game store i still played helga...) played against Doomreaver spam with vlad 1. i killed half his army in a single turn and he placed HALF of that back while killing mine. certain commando's as full units couldn't do much and were so cluttered that they got Wiped. while my slaughter housers did good work on the khador heavies the general gist was indeed that i only managed to win due to scenario and spiked damage rolls on my gunboars. i'm gonna go to min units commando's and try and squeeze in a heavy and some solo's to have something to score on flaggs. didn't make propper pictures for a battle report but i think i'll start a new topic to start sharing said battle reports. this was end of my second turn(i went first). game took 6 turns. he gave up at the end of this 6th turn as he couldn't catch up to my 4 point scenario lead.
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