|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 4, 2019 21:02:57 GMT
Sand’s recent post on his new Fall/Winter lists has me thinking about retooling my Vlad list. I’m curious to know how you’re building Vlad 2 in Wolves, and what’s working for you. If you’ve playtested something and it didn’t work, post your thoughts on that too.
So this is my current list:
What I like about this list, and what’s working for me:
- Even people whom I’ve played into before have a hard time seeing the shenanigans you can pull off on feat turn.
- 5 units of reavers. I love having enough extra bodies that I can make some mistakes or simply throw a few bodies away without worrring about clock-consuming precision. I also find I’m less concerned about a few guns between Vlad’s no-go pie plates and so many bodies.
- The min unit of outriders. They’re just great ranged support. But you all knew that. I have not missed or been sorry for not taking a max unit.
- Alexia 2. She’s great. I find savvy opponents who know her command range have been able to play around her recursion a bit. I feel she’s “nice to have” but not “need to have” and am looking forward to the arrival of the Void Archon.
- Being contrarian...I’ve really liked my jack load out. Yes, a Destroyer would be great, as would Ruin, and if I make tweaks I could see swapping out the jack package. That said, contrary to conventional wisdom I find that I’m getting good use out of melee jacks.
This is the list I’m currently noodling:
I’ve tried, and liked, Doomreavers with a solo colossal. Having such strong ranged support early game and such a damn big anchor piece if attrition goes badly is wonderful. However, I feel like I’m giving way to much up to play with only one jack.
So I’ve been thinking...can I have my cake and eat it too? Can I field a swarm of madman, a Colossal, AND one more heavy?
The answer is, of course, “yes”. Alexia 2 is helpful but isn’t essential, so giving her up and one unit of something gets you a Marauder plus a Conquest. I normally reach for Victor when playing a colossal for the extra range, MAT fixer, and points savings. However, I’m thinking that a Conquest might be the way to go since HoF is an upkeep, and (thank you Sand) the 4” pie plates of nope would be subject to HoF bonuses on your opponents’ turn. In terms of playing for scenario, dropping those pie plates smack dab on top of your solos camping flags just seems like a fantastic move. Solos without boxes will get shredded like cheese in a grater trying to contest a flag, and even ARM 14, 5 box solos have roughly coin-flip odds of dying. In general, I like the protective aspect of the creeping barrages in a list that wants to dominate scenario play (yeah, go ahead and run into that zone or charge my doomreaver, if you want to take a semi-boosted POW 10 to the face).
I’m not sure that the Outriders are strictly necessary in this lineup. Connie wants Hand of Fate, so the right play might be to trade out the Outriders for ranged support on a 72 box chassis.
Add your thoughts and experiences.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Sept 5, 2019 12:24:14 GMT
I haven’t played Vlad2 in probably about three years. I couldn’t tell you why.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Sept 5, 2019 13:02:32 GMT
As you know my go to Vlad2 list since Wolves dropped was 4 units, a Victor, 2 koldun lords, full ponies and KEs. I still think a good list but not "perfect". So my change up that is coming. For one thing I think having just one big sp 4 jack who really likes to shoot in this list is something of a trap. Victor wants to be 4 places at once and can't be. Thus my change until we get Void archons..
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Sept 5, 2019 13:49:38 GMT
Quick question, do we have numbers about how much puppet master helps conquest with the Crit? Regardless of hand of fate, I'm really not a fan of putting hand of fate on the conquest, hand of fate or not, people don't tend to walk into the creeping barrage anyway. This would mean using hand of fate on a very limited amount of shots if it's mostly reserved for the main gun. I'm pretty convinced hand of fate is better on the outriders. That being said, I do like the conquest in the list for it's great shooting support, hence my question about puppet master affecting its crit rate, the conquest's crit can be a game changer when it happens. I'm pretty sure keeping hand of fate on the outriders and giving puppet master to both the outriders and the conquest early on is the best way to go.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 5, 2019 15:39:18 GMT
So, I think this math is directionally accurate. (1) First, you need to understand the odds of a critical hit in general. There’s a great chart on the odds of getting a crit on the base hit. museonminis.com/why-sp-feels-like-sm/The chart shows the odds of getting a critical success given the number of dice you’re rolling and/or dropping vs. what you need to hit. If you’re crit fishing, then I think you want HoF on the Conquest because (a) it improves your chance to hit, and so (b) reduces your risk of missing if you opt to go for a reroll, even though your first roll hit (but did not crit), and also (c) improves your chance of getting a crit, because it improved your chance to hit. So, assuming you need to roll an 8 to hit (say, walked and hitting a DEF 12): - If you boost and have HOF up, then you are getting a crit 50% of the time. - If you boost but don’t have HOF up, then you are getting a crit 34% of the time. - If you didn’t boost you made a user error. (2) Rerolls. I think this is the math... (but can’t shake the feeling that I’m missing something, so someone better at odds math please jump in). Sum: odds of first roll success + (odds of first roll failure * odds of second roll success) + (odds of second roll failure * odds of third roll success)...(odds of n-1 roll failure * odds of n roll success). So if your odds of a first roll success are 50%, and failure is also 50%, then I think the math is: 50% + (50% * 50%) = 75%. If you don’t use HOF, then your odds are 34% + (64% * 34%) = 56%. Roughly speaking, you’re going to crit 3 out of 4 times if you have HoF on the Conquest and just a bit north of half the time when you don’t. This assumes that you reroll every time that you fail to crit, and as I said I think (player physchology here) that I’d be reticent to take the reroll on targets with a moderate DEF if going without HoF. I think the utility of HoF on the Conquest extends a bit farther. You’ve got 4 RNG 12, POW 10 guns. POW 10 on a RAT 4 chassis in the current meta of high DEF single wound infantry (say, DEF 14 Tharn) and moderate DEF, higher ARM multi-wound infantry (say, Ogrun with DEF 12, ARM 16, 5 boxes) is just lousy. Without HoF, you have too a hard time breaking DEF on the Tharn (needing 8s or 10s), and too hard a time breaking ARM on the Ogrun (needing 7s just to break armor). HoF is a wonderful dice fixer in these situations.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Sept 5, 2019 16:55:28 GMT
Oh, hand of fate is cleary a wonderful dice fixer, I'm just not convinced the conquest is the optimal target for it when you can have it on a unit of outriders. It all depends on the situation, but I think you'd generally get more mileage out of having it on the outriders because they can generally put out more attacks than the conquest, they also like the dice fixing more since they can't actually boost like the conquest. Relying on a crit is not a good idea, which is why I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket. I'd rather have the conquest work at less then maximum peak if it means also having my outriders working well, because outriders don't tend to be worth that much without some support. If you don't plan on helping the outriders with some support there is usually a better choice of model than them, Alexia2 could be an option, so could a void archon at this point, give an other reaver unit a command attachement on top of that and call it a day.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 5, 2019 17:39:23 GMT
Is there a realistic case for hot swapping, given the free upkeep, +2 range, the CMD radius of the outriders and 5” repo?
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Sept 5, 2019 17:44:49 GMT
Oh, hand of fate is cleary a wonderful dice fixer, I'm just not convinced the conquest is the optimal target for it when you can have it on a unit of outriders. It all depends on the situation, but I think you'd generally get more mileage out of having it on the outriders because they can generally put out more attacks than the conquest, they also like the dice fixing more since they can't actually boost like the conquest. Relying on a crit is not a good idea, which is why I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket. I'd rather have the conquest work at less then maximum peak if it means also having my outriders working well, because outriders don't tend to be worth that much without some support. If you don't plan on helping the outriders with some support there is usually a better choice of model than them, Alexia2 could be an option, so could a void archon at this point, give an other reaver unit a command attachement on top of that and call it a day. It is a tough call...... 1) BEst thing in the entire world for Conniee to shoot at is a list of beasts/jacks tightly bricked up. Honestly, there are situations (thrown back 6 inches, thrown out of control, etc. etc.) where the Critical Dev can flat out win you the game. 2) But it isn't clear to me that you are GETTING those brick lists that often - cause doomies. It isn't #winning to drop your low model count list into a bunch of doomreavers (or at least MOST of the time) 3) Critical Dev is also not as good in current meta with huge bases that can shoot (Dawnsled and Railless). 4) Arguablly the one this Victor does great is reach out and hit shooting models. I can't do it today but I am going to think about this some more in light of the matchups/factions vlad2 DOESN"T want to see. I think that includes CG and to a lessor extent Retribution, Infernals and Cockatrice spam. One big thing going for COnnie are those HoF blast templates - which can really hurt a bunch of key pieces in at least my meta (Hablies, Neighslayers, Manikens) and they synergize, at least in theory, with Vlad's pie plates of nope. I do think, however, that if you are going that route you have to take a LONG look at dropping ponies. Sad....but a question is whether they are THAT helpful in the scenario game that you are going even more "all in" with in a build with Conquest. PS. ONe thing that struck me though in that debate (Hof on Connie vs. Ponies) is reflecting that I almost NEVER have put a feat token on a pony. And yet, at Def 16, ARM 18, SP 12, POW 13 with a possible Battlewizard and decent chances at impact attacking they are pretty DAMM uber feat options. I might have to try that next game - figuring that they are very difficult to remove playing that way and set up a great next wave with 20+ doomreavers ;-)
|
|
|
Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 5, 2019 22:02:19 GMT
I have been having fantastic results with the following:
Vlad 2 -Victor -Graylord Adjunct(free)
Doom reaver unit x2 Doom reaver unit +UA Croe's Cutthroughts (max) +Valyachev Graylord Ternion (free)
Alexia2 Fenris Koldun Lord(free)
Croes plus victor are my ranged threats; they keep opponents that try and skirt the doom reavers threat ranges honest. Hand of fate + Pray + Koldun Lords -2 arm makes them threatening before they get in backstrike position; and between Zephys and repo 5 they cover a huge distance every turn. Victor + Guidance and eyeless sight/arching fire lets me fish for the squishy support pieces starting turn 2. I cant count the number of times I am able to wipe out key support solos and caster attachments because they wander to close to a low defense model for Victor to take advantage of.
Alexia and fenris follow behind the first wave of doom revers; Alexia makes solos to recycle the corpse tokens of doom revers and enemy models if I am lucky. She also makes sure that I have solos to score flags with. Fenris grants rise and tries to line himself up for a second wave charge.
Ternion serves 2 roles based on the match-up; clouds on the first line of doom revers if I expect my opponent to get the first turn of shooting on them. Clouds on and in front of Vlad as he advances up the field to discourage stray shots towards him in his cloud bunker. Warrior model sniping when available with bonds of woe when available to help replenish any banged up units and recycle bodies even further with Alexia2.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Sept 5, 2019 23:08:42 GMT
I have been having fantastic results with the following: Vlad 2 -Victor -Graylord Adjunct(free) Doom reaver unit x2 Doom reaver unit +UA Croe's Cutthroughts (max) +Valyachev Graylord Ternion (free) Alexia2 Fenris Koldun Lord(free) Croes plus victor are my ranged threats; they keep opponents that try and skirt the doom reavers threat ranges honest. Hand of fate + Pray + Koldun Lords -2 arm makes them threatening before they get in backstrike position; and between Zephys and repo 5 they cover a huge distance every turn. Victor + Guidance and eyeless sight/arching fire lets me fish for the squishy support pieces starting turn 2. I cant count the number of times I am able to wipe out key support solos and caster attachments because they wander to close to a low defense model for Victor to take advantage of. Alexia and fenris follow behind the first wave of doom revers; Alexia makes solos to recycle the corpse tokens of doom revers and enemy models if I am lucky. She also makes sure that I have solos to score flags with. Fenris grants rise and tries to line himself up for a second wave charge. Ternion serves 2 roles based on the match-up; clouds on the first line of doom revers if I expect my opponent to get the first turn of shooting on them. Clouds on and in front of Vlad as he advances up the field to discourage stray shots towards him in his cloud bunker. Warrior model sniping when available with bonds of woe when available to help replenish any banged up units and recycle bodies even further with Alexia2. I LOVE....I MEAN LOVE this list. You are so right. Prey, plus all the fixings make for a TERRIFYING unit. Jesus. I am going to have to run the Railless math test but you may have suggested a very interesting fix to the Juris CG problem. If so I am going to give you my first born. He comes cheap. Just make sure Destiny 2 is available. Will include PS4.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Sept 5, 2019 23:59:04 GMT
I have been having fantastic results with the following: Vlad 2 -Victor -Graylord Adjunct(free) Doom reaver unit x2 Doom reaver unit +UA Croe's Cutthroughts (max) +Valyachev Graylord Ternion (free) Alexia2 Fenris Koldun Lord(free) Croes plus victor are my ranged threats; they keep opponents that try and skirt the doom reavers threat ranges honest. Hand of fate + Pray + Koldun Lords -2 arm makes them threatening before they get in backstrike position; and between Zephys and repo 5 they cover a huge distance every turn. Victor + Guidance and eyeless sight/arching fire lets me fish for the squishy support pieces starting turn 2. I cant count the number of times I am able to wipe out key support solos and caster attachments because they wander to close to a low defense model for Victor to take advantage of. Alexia and fenris follow behind the first wave of doom revers; Alexia makes solos to recycle the corpse tokens of doom revers and enemy models if I am lucky. She also makes sure that I have solos to score flags with. Fenris grants rise and tries to line himself up for a second wave charge. Ternion serves 2 roles based on the match-up; clouds on the first line of doom revers if I expect my opponent to get the first turn of shooting on them. Clouds on and in front of Vlad as he advances up the field to discourage stray shots towards him in his cloud bunker. Warrior model sniping when available with bonds of woe when available to help replenish any banged up units and recycle bodies even further with Alexia2. I LOVE....I MEAN LOVE this list. You are so right. Prey, plus all the fixings make for a TERRIFYING unit. Jesus. I am going to have to run the Railless math test but you may have suggested a very interesting fix to the Juris CG problem. If so I am going to give you my first born. He comes cheap. Just make sure Destiny 2 is available. Will include PS4. For those interested. _IF_ you can land bad santa (I didn't even count his damage at dice -7), a Boosted Victor big gun shot AND all the croe's shots on a prey'ed railless you have a 78% chance. Now "pro move" is to not give you the railless.....so I think the Croes start by preying the halbies and they should have a pretty darn good shot of getting those delt with RELATIVELY quickly (RAT 8 and 9 into the prey and with zepher and repo are going to be REALLY hard to tie down even running. It is too bad that zepher lost its parry aspect in the move. Main problem I can see if having only 3 units of doomies - it may not be enough staying power into spray for days.
|
|
|
Post by hamicron on Sept 6, 2019 5:51:06 GMT
I have been having fantastic results with the following: Vlad 2 -Victor -Graylord Adjunct(free) Doom reaver unit x2 Doom reaver unit +UA Croe's Cutthroughts (max) +Valyachev Graylord Ternion (free) Alexia2 Fenris Koldun Lord(free) Croes plus victor are my ranged threats; they keep opponents that try and skirt the doom reavers threat ranges honest. Hand of fate + Pray + Koldun Lords -2 arm makes them threatening before they get in backstrike position; and between Zephys and repo 5 they cover a huge distance every turn. Victor + Guidance and eyeless sight/arching fire lets me fish for the squishy support pieces starting turn 2. I cant count the number of times I am able to wipe out key support solos and caster attachments because they wander to close to a low defense model for Victor to take advantage of. Alexia and fenris follow behind the first wave of doom revers; Alexia makes solos to recycle the corpse tokens of doom revers and enemy models if I am lucky. She also makes sure that I have solos to score flags with. Fenris grants rise and tries to line himself up for a second wave charge. Ternion serves 2 roles based on the match-up; clouds on the first line of doom revers if I expect my opponent to get the first turn of shooting on them. Clouds on and in front of Vlad as he advances up the field to discourage stray shots towards him in his cloud bunker. Warrior model sniping when available with bonds of woe when available to help replenish any banged up units and recycle bodies even further with Alexia2. I like it. A really good balance of crunchiness and ranged presence. Can you still feat onto the leader model of Croes? I know you could in Mk2 due to Croes being a character unit without any character models in it but does it still work now? As a 22 threat, rat 9, possibly HoF and Preyed, Silence ‘no more spells’ shot at a caster is pretty fun!
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Sept 6, 2019 7:30:07 GMT
...I am going to give you my first born. He comes cheap. Just make sure Destiny 2 is available. Will include PS4. It's polite to ask if someone wants your first born before handing them over - turns out kids can be a bit of a hassle. Still, if he's using a PS4 he should be able to do some basic manual labor at least. Giving away one's first born was much easier before child labor was prohibited...
It's an interesting list. I'm always worried about scenario with only one jack, and I'm not sold on Fenris (but then I don't rate Rise because I don't rate Tough), but it is nice to see Croe's back.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Sept 6, 2019 17:00:37 GMT
I like Fenris quite a lot with Vlad2, and probably only with Vlad2 in wolves, arcane might is actually great for him and the grevious wounds he brings to the table is interesting. With other casters I'll clearly be more looking at alexia2 or a void archon.
|
|
|
Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 6, 2019 20:42:56 GMT
I will take the PS4... you can keep the kid.
Admittedly Crucible Guard does not have a huge presence in my meta; mostly Elves/Circle/Trolls/Scorn and Cygnar. Fenris is probably the weakest model in the list as my opponents have learned to pop the revers once they fall over, but what to replace him with? He does a good job of wandering around with Alexia and keeping their bubbles overlapping. A second Koldun Lord would be nice, and maybe another solo.
|
|