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Post by darkangeldentist on Aug 15, 2019 12:40:11 GMT
This is mostly a silly thread but with about a serious question at the heart of it.
The ironclad must be a selfish and covetous jack for it keeps the quake hammer all to itself.
I often wonder about the weapons jacks wield. Cygnar has a particular fondness for hammers (nearly half of our heavies are armed with one including character jacks) but I can't make any sense why the poor hammersmith is lumbered with it's rather pathetic forge hammers when every other option would be better. Although it's a fair question why they aren't all equipped with quake hammers when it's the most powerful weapon Cygnar manufactures except for the stormclad's generator blade.
Imagine if you will a hammersmith with a pair of quake hammers. Yeah, you'd lose beat back but it wouldn't be silly for it to keep chain-attack smite and that would make it a fantastic beatstick piece. Even the likes of the defender and reliant would be better off with a quake hammer in nearly all situations. So why does the ironclad get to keep this excellent piece of kit all to itself?
In the case of the hammersmith any other hammer would be an upgrade, with a shock hammer foes would be bereft of cortexes in a matter of moments, even the pulse hammer would offer a niche option to free up lightning immune models by knocking down those around them a critical hit. It's perplexing and it's vexing.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 15, 2019 12:58:46 GMT
That's why dual wield(apart the shield, of course!) is almost extinct among the military of real world - if you have two quake hammers, you can give it to two Ironclad chassis warjack instead!
Jokes aside, although warjacks can't grab a weapon by two hands, but I think that some powerful beatstick weapons on the heavy warjack are a kind of 'two handed' class weapon, which is powerful but cumbersome. Such as quake hammer, generator blade, inferno mace, ice axe, and thermal blade, which the warjack with these weapons only have open fist on the other hand. Perhaps its weight keep them to equip two of them at once. Well, Imperatus wields two thermal blades, but that's because it's awesome.
The diffrent chassis makes the diffrence, though, for Centurion chassis is more powerful than Ironclad chassis, so Hammersmith may wield two quake hammer or have one quake hammer in addition to a forge hammer.
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Post by Rork on Aug 15, 2019 13:09:19 GMT
I compare it to inter-war and early war tanks - you ended up with quite specialist equipment. You want something to take out tanks? Bring a tank destroyer. You want to be really mobile? Bring a light tank despite the obvious logistical issues of such variety. That seems to be the Iron Kingdoms way of thinking - have each warjack fulfil a very particular role. I think if you updated Cygnar's warjacks to be in line with "modern" armour, we'd have Stormclads, Centurions and Defenders alongside Hunters, Chargers and maybe Sentinels (maybe replace with fireflies). With near total war in the Iron Kingdoms, it's surprising (besides the sales and designer intent, of course ) that no nation hasn't rationalised its arsenal.
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Post by jagius021 on Aug 15, 2019 13:26:44 GMT
They may also be utilizing these Jack's for specialized non-combat roles as well. Forge hammers sound like they might be used in...a forge! If the Jack's are doing double duty and are proficient with the tool that works as a weapon, it makes sense to use em. Given that the Hammersmith is on the centurion chassis and that's an older and outdated chassis we already see that cygnar keeps at least some of it's old toys around.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 15, 2019 14:02:39 GMT
I often wonder about the weapons jacks wield. Cygnar has a particular fondness for hammers (nearly half of our heavies are armed with one including character jacks) but I can't make any sense why the poor hammersmith is lumbered with it's rather pathetic forge hammers when every other option would be better. Although it's a fair question why they aren't all equipped with quake hammers when it's the most powerful weapon Cygnar manufactures... Might be some tech rule we don't know about - perhaps jacks can stay standing from the effect of one Quake Hammer, but two in close succession would be destabilising? It might also be that the Chain Attack Smite is in fact tied to the mechanika in the Forge Hammers - perhaps each hit causes a gain in momentum?
More generally, "better" really depend on whether you're just thinking in terms of damage. Given Khador's response to improving technology has been to stick even more armour plates onto their jacks (the Devastator chassis), giving your jacks weapons which drive opponents back rather than just an incremental increase in damage doesn't sound like a bad idea. Rather than trying to go through the problem of increased armour, Cygnar tries alternative approaches. Possibly particularly important in the context of a military which tends to stress shooting. Both the Centurion and the Hammersmith are methods of keeping/getting the enemy out of your lines, which lets your guns do more work.
There's also a possible resources issue for some of the more specialist hammers with more complex mechanika. That presumably doesn't apply to the Quake Hammer, which must be made of fairly widely available materials.
Incidentally, if you don't want your Hammersmiths, I'd love to have them over in Khador. We might need to make the hammers look a bit more axe like, but then we're good.
jagius021, unless PP have retconned it, per the Mk2 Cygnar book the Ironclad chassis is older than the Centurion one. Ironclads were introduced in 556AR, the Centurion in 599AR and the Hammersmith in 604AR.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 15, 2019 14:45:20 GMT
Given Khador's response to improving technology has been to stick even more armour plates onto their jacks (the Devastator chassis), giving your jacks weapons which drive opponents back rather than just an incremental increase in damage doesn't sound like a bad idea. Foolish Swans! You can't drive back a clamjack! Incidentally, if you don't want your Hammersmiths, I'd love to have them over in Khador. We might need to make the hammers look a bit more axe like, but then we're good. "Ham Mir"? Are you talking about flat-faced axes? We're fine with those, the Grolar uses one for example. Other axes we use include tall narrow axes like the Rager has, long-handled sharp-topped axes like the one used by the Centurion, tall cone-bladed axes like the Spriggan uses, and rotating circular axes like the Decimator's.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 15, 2019 16:39:28 GMT
A: Warjack cortices actually have a hard time adapting to non-standard weaponry. It probably easier to just stick with what the jacks are used to, especially older one, than trying to re-train them. B: It migth simply be more cost effective. A quake hammer is probably more expensive to make than a forge hammer, so there simply aren't enough quake hammers for every jack.
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Post by kjata on Aug 15, 2019 20:14:59 GMT
B: It migth simply be more cost effective. A quake hammer is probably more expensive to make than a forge hammer, so there simply aren't enough quake hammers for every jack. There is no way a quake hammer costs anywhere near a warjack tho. While I can think of reasons to not use 2 hammers, cost isn't really one. Having an open hand is useful, because if you hit em with the hammer and knock them over, having a hand to hold them down as you continue striking with the hammer would be effective. Also, the open hand is useful for the brawling fighting style I picture most warjack having. At the end of the day, all warjacks not having a shield instead of an open hand bothers me more than them not having 2 weapons.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 15, 2019 20:35:33 GMT
Having an open hand is useful, because if you hit em with the hammer and knock them over, having a hand to hold them down as you continue striking with the hammer would be effective. Also, the open hand is useful for the brawling fighting style I picture most warjack having. At the end of the day, all warjacks not having a shield instead of an open hand bothers me more than them not having 2 weapons. In the short story introducing Malakov as a junior, he chooses a jack with two open hands in a competition because of the greater tactical flexibility that open hands provide. That's a fluff explanation for their prevalence in the basic heavy warjacks of most factions - they just warcasters more options with their jacks (especially in the pre-Mk3 days, when there was a greater range of power attacks).
It may be that this is a standard part of jack tactics in the Iron Kingdoms - make use of the open hands on jacks. That would explain why none of Cygnar, Khador or the Protectorate (the most organised militaries) gave anything other than open fists to their colossals. You would have thought that dedicated melee weapons might be superior. A bias towards having available hands on jacks might be the explanation.
It also explains the relative absence of shields - the shield prevents a jack from using their hand.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Aug 15, 2019 20:40:11 GMT
Having an open hand is useful, because if you hit em with the hammer and knock them over, having a hand to hold them down as you continue striking with the hammer would be effective. Also, the open hand is useful for the brawling fighting style I picture most warjack having. At the end of the day, all warjacks not having a shield instead of an open hand bothers me more than them not having 2 weapons. In the short story introducing Malakov as a junior, he chooses a jack with two open hands in a competition because of the greater tactical flexibility that open hands provide. That's a fluff explanation for their prevalence in the basic heavy warjacks of most factions - they just warcasters more options with their jacks (especially in the pre-Mk3 days, when there was a greater range of power attacks).
It may be that this is a standard part of jack tactics in the Iron Kingdoms - make use of the open hands on jacks. That would explain why none of Cygnar, Khador or the Protectorate (the most organised militaries) gave anything other than open fists to their colossals. You would have thought that dedicated melee weapons might be superior. A bias towards having available hands on jacks might be the explanation.
It also explains the relative absence of shields - the shield prevents a jack from using their hand.
The benefits of plot armour mean never flubbing a roll. Also, in response to an earlier reply. Whilst Cygnar may not be able to push a clam jack around it can still slam it into the back of beyond!
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 15, 2019 21:03:10 GMT
B: It migth simply be more cost effective. A quake hammer is probably more expensive to make than a forge hammer, so there simply aren't enough quake hammers for every jack. There is no way a quake hammer costs anywhere near a warjack tho. While I can think of reasons to not use 2 hammers, cost isn't really one. Having an open hand is useful, because if you hit em with the hammer and knock them over, having a hand to hold them down as you continue striking with the hammer would be effective. Also, the open hand is useful for the brawling fighting style I picture most warjack having. At the end of the day, all warjacks not having a shield instead of an open hand bothers me more than them not having 2 weapons. Or you just give the a buckler and have the best of both worlds. Seeing jakcks with an open fist rather than a buckler bothers me more than that tbh.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 15, 2019 21:09:48 GMT
A: Warjack cortices actually have a hard time adapting to non-standard weaponry. It probably easier to just stick with what the jacks are used to, especially older one, than trying to re-train them. Not true. Warjack-grade cortex are quite easily adapt to the new armament due to its much better inteligence unlike laborjack, unless the new weapon's role is totally diffrent. The pharase that 'a steamjack have a hard time to adapting new weapon and it should be wiped to give a new one' only applies to the laborjack grade simple cortex. It was already confirmed by Doug - means it is official. So if the weapon's role is similar the warjack adapts it fast or use it outright. But the experienced warjacks already evolve its quirk and style of battle or new weaponly might not suited for them. For example: Ol'Rowdy will use forge hammers or generator blade well as its deadly quake hammer, without requires for much time to train. But due to its hot blooded nature it can't use a gun properly, for its habit is to rush through the enemy line - it was serviced for almost a half of a century without a ranged weapon so it is natural. While its RAT 6 provides true aim even if you issue it a heavy barrel, but it hardly wait and shoot the enemy and have the enough time to constantly shoot the ranged weapon. If you replace the left arm with a heavy barrel, it also try to smash the enemy with its heavy barrel first until it is used to its new armament, for it smashes the enemy in a half of a year by its left hand - and its quake hamme on that hand. Ace is a sneaky sniper, so give it a dual cannon wouldn't harm its performance and it will adapt it easily. But if you give it an Ironclad chassis and only issue a quake hammer, it needs too much time to adapt it and it usually dodge and try to make some distance and avoid face to face with the enemy, and it also tries to enter a small entrance only light warjacks are able to enter. If you give it a Charger chassis and a ranged weapon it will adapt the new body easily due to still have a ranged weapon and similar height, but because it wants to move through the rough terrain often so it would cause some problem too. Thorn usually rush through the enemy line but it doesn't actively engage with the enemy, for its role is to channel the spell rather than show off its melee prowess. So even if you put off the arc node from it, it usually roaming in front of the enemy but it does not charge the enemy. B: It migth simply be more cost effective. A quake hammer is probably more expensive to make than a forge hammer, so there simply aren't enough quake hammers for every jack. Ironclad chassis costs 10500gc(6000gc without a cortex). Quake hammer is a mechanikal weapon and it costs 2110gc. Centurion chassis costs 10000gc(7500gc without a cortex). Forge hammers are normal weapon and it costs 350gc each(a pair of them costs 700gc).
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 15, 2019 21:10:01 GMT
Having an open hand is useful, because if you hit em with the hammer and knock them over, having a hand to hold them down as you continue striking with the hammer would be effective. Also, the open hand is useful for the brawling fighting style I picture most warjack having. At the end of the day, all warjacks not having a shield instead of an open hand bothers me more than them not having 2 weapons. In the short story introducing Malakov as a junior, he chooses a jack with two open hands in a competition because of the greater tactical flexibility that open hands provide. That's a fluff explanation for their prevalence in the basic heavy warjacks of most factions - they just warcasters more options with their jacks (especially in the pre-Mk3 days, when there was a greater range of power attacks).
It may be that this is a standard part of jack tactics in the Iron Kingdoms - make use of the open hands on jacks. That would explain why none of Cygnar, Khador or the Protectorate (the most organised militaries) gave anything other than open fists to their colossals. You would have thought that dedicated melee weapons might be superior. A bias towards having available hands on jacks might be the explanation.
It also explains the relative absence of shields - the shield prevents a jack from using their hand. I think it also comes down to Colossal cortices not being able to properly handle melee weapons, the Viktor specifically uses a ship cannon that auto reloads because the cortex cannot be burdened with managing reloading on top of trying to direct its massive body around and punching things. Also any weapon a colossal could theoretically wield would probably just end up being a big smashy thing anyway, because no way you are going to have a weapon that is both massive enough for colossal hands, and keeps an edge at the same time. So might was well just use the big hunky fists for smashing stuff.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 16, 2019 5:14:16 GMT
I don't think so. Some Colossals do use the melee weapon. But its sheer bulk already makes its open fist a deadly weapon as a main beatstick weapon on a heavy warjack, so I don't think that the designers of colossals are bothered to make any of. Also, these melee weapons are only handled by the colossal and that would be too heavy, else there is not much a diffrence between its own fists.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Aug 16, 2019 9:47:08 GMT
I don't think so. Some Colossals do use the melee weapon. But its sheer bulk already makes its open fist a deadly weapon as a main beatstick weapon on a heavy warjack, so I don't think that the designers of colossals are bothered to make any of. Also, these melee weapons are only handled by the colossal and that would be too heavy, else there is not much a diffrence between its own fists. Yeah, no. There are no colossals in the game that use melee weapons that the would have to physically grip. I genuinely don't know what you are talking about. ALL of the colossals use their fists, or replacements for their fists in the case of the galleon and cryxian colossals. Even the iosian and CG colossals, which should have the most advanced cortices in the universe don't use clubs, maces, big ass swords, axes, hammers, ect.
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