Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 2, 2019 9:57:25 GMT
I’ve been hearing a lot of complaints from Troll players recently about how difficult it is to play a brick into current scenario pack. Essentially the stone, which for so long defined us is now a weight around our neck that makes us struggle in the evolving game. On a completely unrelated note, I am frustrated by the thematic inconsistencies of Kriel Company. What if the solution to both problems was the same thing?
Lets start by talking about the fluff of the Kriel theme. Some players see the word Kriel in the title and immediately assume they should be allowed to take Kriel Warriors, because they have Kriel in the name. Kriel is one of the ways that the Troll people refer to themselves, they talk of Kith and Kriel, which is obviously similar to the Scottish phrase Kith and Kin. We see these words re-used around the Troll faction, we have Kithkars, Kriel Stones and Kriel Warriors. I think it’s clear from the usage that Kriel is a general term that Trolls use to refer to themselves in small communities. You could imagine a sacred stone at the middle of a Troll village that is carried into battle to inspire and buff the warriors. You can see the Kriel Warriors as a sort of Troll militia, they have the worst fighting stats and could be seen as the every day Troll fighting to save his home. He and the other boys and girls from his village went to war. They aren’t skilled warriors, they are just Kriel Warriors defending their homes.
So what is a Kriel Company? I see a few thematic links tied in together here, but a lot of it makes sense. When Captain Gunnbjorn came back from fighting in the Cygnar army, he brought back, modern weapons and modern tactics. We see units of Trolls and Pygs with guns: Look at Sluggers, Scattergunners, Bushwackers and Burrowers. He brings artillery and the war wagon. We also see Blitzers who are clearly inspired by this desire to modernise the Troll army. Gunnbjorn pushes us in a Cygnar-influenced direction. We can see strong links with the modernization of the Japanese army in the early 20th century. Any history buffs or people who have watched the film The Last Samuari will see clear parallels. I’d argue from a fluff perspective he wouldn’t want a Kriel Stone in his fighting forces. He is all about automation and the idea of a strong man carrying a large spiritual rock on his back doesn’t seem like something the “New Modern Troll Army” would actually care about. At the very least I’d expect him to mount it on a vehicle.
But the New Modern Troll Army isn’t the only theme in Kriel Company. We also see highwaymen and Jarl. We see another evolution of Troll tactics. We see the skirmishing force that hits you, robs you and makes an escape through the trees. Such tactics are excellent in a war setting and while we haven’t seen a huge amount of models released that reflect on this it seems pretty obvious Jarl wouldn’t be lugging a stone with him. He’s all about speed and manoeuvrability, a big slow plodding stone would be the opposite of what he would want.
Thirdly we have the Scout force trolls. We have the master hunter Grim Angus. A troll who’s wartime role is in advance of the main army, a Troll that lives off the land and is a survival specialist. You could imagine his forces travelling across inhospitable terrain. It’s hard to imagine he would want someone lugging a stone with his force as they cross a twenty miles of swamp land. To further this point, in MK2 Grim1 had a theme full of mercenaries. He is a gun for hire and it makes sense he would use other guns for hire who wouldn’t benefit from the stone
So let’s be honest here, the Kriel Stone doesn’t really make sense with any of these casters. From a game play perspective many of these units rely on defence more than armour to survive anyway. That’s certainly true for the Pygs, Highwaymen, Northkin Raiders and fire Eaters are also Def 13. So why not get rid of the stone from Kriel Company and balance the models and the theme assuming it won’t be there. This would also give trolls the added advantage of a different playstyle and a theme that plays differently and is more suited to more spread out scenarios and a less bricky playstyle.
PP have probably thought of everything I just said already, but I worry if they gave us a theme without a stone the backlash would be insane. I want you to realise, that such a change could allow us to play a real Kriel Company army, which is not only tactically different to play, but thematically tighter.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Aug 2, 2019 14:28:00 GMT
I'd love to see the stone become less mandatory. The biggest concern with removing the stone from KC is how you'd balance the loss out for your non-KC locked units, beasts, and BEs, not the theme locked units. 12/18 is the same as Shyeel's heavies, but then troll heavies have one less speed, so they end up being inferior. If you buff fire eaters and NK raiders, they become too strong in themes with the stone (unless you drop their armor, which is another can of worms).
Overall I'm not a huge fan of PP's tax units. The stone is imo the least well designdd - Scyrah's mechaniks are solos, and Skorne/Menoth's support units only affects warnouns, so they aren't nearly as restrictive.
I don't see why you'd expect backlash, though. I doubt KC will ever become the next DH/Exalted and invalidate all other themes, and with the 2 list format it's not like it can. It'll take PP a lot of effort to make the stone irrelevant.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 2, 2019 14:53:24 GMT
I'd love to see the stone become less mandatory. The biggest concern with removing the stone from KC is how you'd balance the loss out for your non-KC locked units, beasts, and BEs, not the theme locked units. 12/18 is the same as Shyeel's heavies, but then troll heavies have one less speed, so they end up being inferior. If you buff fire eaters and NK raiders, they become too strong in themes with the stone (unless you drop their armor, which is another can of worms). Overall I'm not a huge fan of PP's tax units. The stone is imo the least well designdd - Scyrah's mechaniks are solos, and Skorne/Menoth's support units only affects warnouns, so they aren't nearly as restrictive. I don't see why you'd expect backlash, though. I doubt KC will ever become the next DH/Exalted and invalidate all other themes, and with the 2 list format it's not like it can. It'll take PP a lot of effort to make the stone irrelevant. I think there are plenty of ways you can balance the beasts. I'm not 100% sure you need to as our beasts aren't terrible without the stone, but for instance you could add a theme benefit that gave all beasts +1 speed in theme or unyielding.
As for the non locked units I'm not sure you need to buff them, people will play Fire eaters even without the stone and the same is true for Northkin Raiders, generally these units are so good they can fine on their own. And if they won't play them I think that's fine as well, a few of these Northkin models seem strangely out of place with kriel Company.
BTW when I say, make playing stone-less viable, I don't mean going around and buffing arm by 1 or 2. That might be the right option on something like a War Wagon, but for most of the units I'd rather see increased gun ranges, higher rats, lower points or higher defence. Let's be honest, most of the units in Kriel Company already have low armour, the stone is doing very little for Scattergunners, Pyg Units etc.
I think if they released changed to Kriel Company that said they where removing the stone, people would be initially outraged and see it as a nerf. I honestly think as long as they looked at making changes to other models it could be a huge plus and make thematic sense.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Aug 3, 2019 14:23:37 GMT
Some thoughts on KC: 1. KSB removed from allowed list (don't have guns!) 2. Remove Theme bonus change Mark Target:solos (which, besides whelps, there are not many decent TB sacrificial cheap solos, till PP sells us some). Gives Lookouts back their 'purpose' and Grim2 half his Feat. 3. Theme bonus changes to Warrior UNITS gain Steady. Non-warlock Warrior unit models gain +2 DEF while in Warlock's COMMAND range
Steady returns 'Tough' Trolls to days of old, except for all the anti-Tough around. Can spread the guns for the far flung scenarios and have a hope that some will survive against the super fast melee of the current game (MK3=Vengeance). +2 DEF provides a rarity/novelty, a hard to hit cheap pts Troll model (my Champions get munched because bunched). Command range keeps it limited 'like' a KSB effect. Bunching in CMD makes it a risk!
Madrak3's stock rises! (Pseudo KSB)
Provide for damage-enhancing mini-feats on specific ranged units' Command Attachments AND/OR sell Weapons Attachments that provide case specific damage increase against 50/120mm models, against which units' POW 16 and less guns (this is with Mortality/Calamity already applied - Burrowers/Thumpers ha!) are frustratingly ineffectual.
/2¥
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Aug 3, 2019 14:35:57 GMT
Some thoughts on KC: 1. KSB removed from allowed list (don't have guns!) 2. Remove Theme bonus change Mark Target:solos (which, besides whelps, there are not many decent TB sacrificial cheap solos, till PP sells us some). Gives Lookouts back their 'purpose' and Grim2 half his Feat. 3. Theme bonus changes to Warrior UNITS gain Steady. Non-warlock Warrior unit models gain +2 DEF while in Warlock's COMMAND range Steady returns 'Tough' Trolls to days of old, except for all the anti-Tough around. Can spread the guns for the far flung scenarios and have a hope that some will survive against the super fast melee of the current game (MK3=Vengeance). +2 DEF provides a rarity/novelty, a hard to hit cheap pts Troll model (my Champions get munched because bunched). Command range keeps it limited 'like' a KSB effect. Bunching in CMD makes it a risk! Madrak3's stock rises! (Pseudo KSB) Provide for damage-enhancing mini-feats on specific ranged units' Command Attachments AND/OR sell Weapons Attachments that provide case specific damage increase against 50/120mm models, against which units' POW 16 and less guns (this is with Mortality/Calamity already applied - Burrowers/Thumpers ha!) are frustratingly ineffectual. /2¥ I'm not a big fan of the idea of centerign the +2 DEF aura on the warlock. The whole problem with trolls is that they're almost forced to play bricky if they want a chance to win, and this again forces you back into bricking (to some extent). I think it might be better to add a solo that acts as a pseudo-KSB, with its benefit being that it grants +2 DEF to warrior models in an aura. This goes back to being a tax unit, which I really dislike, so I'm kind of contradicting myself, but I think having an FA:2 solo a la Dawnguard Scyir, Venator Dakar, etc is much more thematically fitting, and I wanna say probably more fun to play with. The only way we could really check which of these options works better in practice would be to run some homebrew BRs on this and see how it plays out. I'm not sure CAs are a universal answer, for things like the highwayman a minifeat that lets them get off more shots seems much more fitting than extra damage, but I agree that adding some heavy weapon WAs could be a great addition. Was gonna say a +dmg CA would make sense for scattergunners, but they already have a CA that doesn't do that. A lot of the ranged units could use some overhauling.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Aug 3, 2019 14:54:18 GMT
I think the stone is mandatory. It would be interesting to think about a non stone KC, but in the end you would hate to leave it for your wagons and Beasts, as well as losing its utility.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Aug 3, 2019 15:10:47 GMT
I think the stone is mandatory. It would be interesting to think about a non stone KC, but in the end you would hate to leave it for your wagons and Beasts, as well as losing its utility. As it stands, sure, but the whole point of the discussion is how you could modify KC in such a way that the stone would no longer be needed.
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Post by gobber on Aug 3, 2019 17:37:12 GMT
One thing that might help is making the stones FA2? The option to run two min stones and split up wouldn't hurt now that awaken the stone means they can generate a lot of their own fury.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Aug 3, 2019 19:39:41 GMT
One thing that might help is making the stones FA2? The option to run two min stones and split up wouldn't hurt now that awaken the stone means they can generate a lot of their own fury. that might work, but then you're doubling the stone tax in real life cash. and if you want all of the stone buffs (which are pretty vital) you're getting double dipped a second time.
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Post by Kevin on Aug 3, 2019 19:41:15 GMT
As a faction we pay too much for support already to pay for double stones
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Aug 4, 2019 8:34:52 GMT
I still think it is the way it was: "The stone is just too good". You could play M1 and go for def14, then you don't "need" it. Or M3 and keep the heavies close to him. Or actually leave it away and see what happens. Everything is balanced with the stone on mind, but that does not mean that or stuff is too expensive without stone. The stone is 9-12 points+ Fury investment! That is the (full) stone tax. If you play shooty lights, maybe a few blitzes and then lots of KC infantry and wagons that flank anyways: I think you can just straight out leave it! If your game plan is hitting a hard alpha with shooting in KC, then take more guns and less stone! +1str does not help much there and you don't need to protect yourself from shooting, if you are shooting. Especially with gunbjorn!
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Aug 4, 2019 9:51:01 GMT
I am not a troll player, but I do have a kriel company list because I adore the models and the idea of an specialised trollkin army detachment (Sharpe and his chosen men allways cone to mind, loved that series as a kid). So for me that meant a minimum BG (bomber+swamptroll), planning for as many units and solos as I could fit in under grim2.
My choices were all theme driven, not so much with a powerfull list in mind. I don't want the stone because it seems out of place, and in a unit heavy list it doesn't make much sense to begin with so the stone was never even a consideration for me, I don't miss it (having never used it). The list is probably fairly weak, but with the points saved on the stone it gave a lot of wiggle room to build lists. I even have a list with raluk and a freebooter and still menaged to get three freebees in there. Now that bushwhackers and sons of bragg are cheaper it's even more free.
I think what you should ask yourself is what you want from the theme. Many choices that fit the theme aren't very powerfull, but those don't need the stone either. Things like a warweagon are powerfull and do like stone, but is one WW enough to justify the stone? How many tough choices do you need before the stone is a decent investement, and what is left of the theme by then?
I think its a a fluffy theme you play for fun, as such you should just leave the stone and use your points to explore other venues. Maybe spamming huge bases with a stone works wonders? Doesn't seem thematic to me though and personally I'd want to figure out how to run theme strong without the stone.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Aug 4, 2019 12:12:08 GMT
I am not a troll player, but I do have a kriel company list because I adore the models and the idea of an specialised trollkin army detachment (Sharpe and his chosen men allways cone to mind, loved that series as a kid). So for me that meant a minimum BG (bomber+swamptroll), planning for as many units and solos as I could fit in under grim2. My choices were all theme driven, not so much with a powerfull list in mind. I don't want the stone because it seems out of place, and in a unit heavy list it doesn't make much sense to begin with so the stone was never even a consideration for me, I don't miss it (having never used it). The list is probably fairly weak, but with the points saved on the stone it gave a lot of wiggle room to build lists. I even have a list with raluk and a freebooter and still menaged to get three freebees in there. Now that bushwhackers and sons of bragg are cheaper it's even more free. I think what you should ask yourself is what you want from the theme. Many choices that fit the theme aren't very powerfull, but those don't need the stone either. Things like a warweagon are powerfull and do like stone, but is one WW enough to justify the stone? How many tough choices do you need before the stone is a decent investement, and what is left of the theme by then? I think its a a fluffy theme you play for fun, as such you should just leave the stone and use your points to explore other venues. Maybe spamming huge bases with a stone works wonders? Doesn't seem thematic to me though and personally I'd want to figure out how to run theme strong without the stone. Christ, thinking about Sharpe really takes me back. I read the books when I was maybe 12 years old. AFAIK Jaden Iwaasa won a tournament with his Grim1 army list, with double WW, a hooch hauler, and a sea king. So yes, KC huge base spam works. I think it's pretty obvious, if you compare KC's unit point for point to other factions' units, that they fall short. Maybe not by a huge margin, but there's no reason why a trollblood ranged infantry army shouldn't be viable. Ingenious listbuilding can only take you so far, which is why to begin with the discussion started with the question what kind of modification would need to happen to the stats of the dudes in KC for it to actually become viable. If you run a bunch of models that are supposed to have synergy and they're still not viable, that's not a 'fun' list, that's just the models needing to be tuned up. I wish PP would spend more time closing these gaps, be it in KC, LoS, or any other units and themes that are weak right now.
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Post by beardmonk on Aug 5, 2019 8:44:02 GMT
Iv actually dropped the KS from a number of lists since the update to see “how it goes”.
While there are certain BoH, PoD & SoTN lists that do need the stone, there are many lists that really don’t need it and KC is also a theme where iv found dropping the KS all together quite beneficial as it enable you to get and extra beast or unit into the list.
TBH we need a wider conversation about the KS in Trolls. Im not sure it’s the “100% essential model” it used to be. Dropping it in some lists opens up options
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 5, 2019 8:53:20 GMT
For what it's worth, battle engines are often very good on wide scenarios because they don't require (much) caster support, so aren't shackled to the control area. When you approach it from that angle, the stone is already less attractive, because you will want to play wide. Troll battle engines are also pretty decent already and reposition helps with the skirmishing so bumping up their armour doesn't do that much.
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