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Post by sand20go on Jul 21, 2019 5:39:59 GMT
OK peeps. Yup....back to the unbeatable Haley list. I promise not to be frustrated. (For those curious about 3 of us khador players in San Diego went through hell trying to tech against Juris's Haley 2 list. Never beaten (by Khador) Immediately below is my first list. I HATE to change it. I really like it. But I think it could not play into: - Cruciable guard (unless Rocket heavy where I think it can hang because of Arcane Might; HoF; and Victor 3 dice)
- Double dawn sleds (does "OK" but hard to pin them down in a pie plate - particularly if Scary Gary because it means Vlad is AWFULLY close to getting killed by gary and or Moros). When he has struggled is when trying to get the pie plates deep enough to save the doomies and then dying when Moros comes from something like 19 inches away to paralyze vlad2 before ALL the shooting.
- Mass single wound shooting (I got chickened out of Vlad2 by a DoubleMHS - should have just dropped and tried ;-)
conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0K77f8nj8h8hnf89nf89nfnfnhchKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Wolves of Winter [Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion [+27] - Victor [34] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Greylord Outriders (max) [17] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Probably the list I have had the greatest success with in 2019. Works for my play style. I really like (as noted in other threads) the murder girls because of just how far they threat. OK. Here is Juris's "main" drop (He has a locke list but it feels that this list forces him GENERALLY to play this other....FAIRLY certain this is correct and if Not Juris will be SOON to chime in ;-) conflictchamber.com/?cf201b_-12l8ltlslslblFlH7klElElElklkiBlDldldCrucible Guard Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Magnum Opus [Syvestro 1] Aurum Adeptus Syvestro [+28] - Liberator [10] - Retaliator [9] - Retaliator [9] - Suppressor [13] - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc [0(5)] Crucible Guard Mechanik [2] Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist [4] Trancer [3] Trancer [3] Trancer [3] Dragon's Breath Rocket [0(5)] Dragon's Breath Rocket [0(5)] Steelhead Halberdiers (max) [11] - Doctor Alejandro Mosby [4] Railless Interceptor [16] Railless Interceptor [16] The problem is, as I have noted in other threads, is that it has a very irritating ability to "kite". The Halbies go off and use lots of Mosby's abilities to be ridiculously difficult to remove. If need be they can go all Transmutation+MiniFeat to get up to a respectably POW 15...and then add in the likely debuff and feat and they hit SIGNIGFICANTLY above their weight. The trancers are, at innate def 15 to shooting just there to run in and contest in the other places - along with flag scorers (again, see def 15). Lose roll and the superfueled Raillesses are running up 16 and threatening nearly to your back edge. But their job is to just start killing infantry and then "scooting" back out of threat range (they can easily do this to 13 from their target and get in the big gun and the sprays. Rust is there to be applied by Gorman or Suppressor. We "tried" butcher3. Now I think some (a lot) of this was on me - not just running Butcher forward surrounded by WG and trying to survive with well positioned sac pawns. Definately have to play it that way cause I tried defensive and that was horrific. Was the new VERY wide zone circles which DEFINATELY favored him (3 independent modules between Halbies, and the BE while Butcher likes a TIGHT bubble). But what do people think? It FEELS that if I find a HALF decent CG list I will be OK into Ret. double dawn sleds. And no....I don't NEED to beat Juris - I just need to feel it has game so I can beat players other than the team captain for one of the US WTC teams. |
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932 
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Post by Ganso on Jul 21, 2019 6:55:10 GMT
Oh hell no, I ain't going down that rabbit hole  You can hunt that white whale on your own  Plus, don't want to throw shade, but once upon a time I did manage to go toe to toe with Juris (of course, it was 2013 and I had a TJ meta were I could play 5 games a week). My stance hasn't change though, your not gonna defeat him with a silver bullet list  What we could probably do is look at game recordings and give feedback on that, if you wanna go through the trouble. |
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Jul 21, 2019 11:14:09 GMT
Ganso has A really good idea about sharing some recordings, If possible of your games. Battle reports would be good too, but a video might help to see the, who what now, in the heat of the moment.
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Post by auraco on Jul 21, 2019 13:55:05 GMT
You're talking about teching against Haley2 back in mk2 right Sand? It was next to impossible to do for Khador, he kit was just kryptonite to pretty much anything we could throw at her. The only solution I found was late in mk2 with a weird Karchev list with Behemoth, Beast09 and Ruin (cuz she couldn't take control of character jacks) and Raluk Marshalling a Vanguard and Alexia2 for board presence, man late mk2 was Firetrucking weird when you think about it... But well other than that, there was no good plan to go against Haley2 back then, not for us at least.
Now mk3 is a different thing, we can tech better against a lot of stuff, I don't think we have a kryptonite anymore.
Don't change the Vlad2 list, it's perfect as it is, it's just not a list you want to throw up against gun lines, so pretty much all the things you've listed, it will just die there, too much shooting taking out too many reavers.
Also I see no possible way for Butcher3 to tackle these kinds of gunlines, Butcher3 offers no protection against shooting and he plays with points down over his enemy because he has so few jack points. He also has to be careful to not just get shot off the board. When he commits he usually likes to do so in a calculated manner that reduces retaliation potential, something that is very hard to do against a gunline since committing usually means exposing himself to most of the guns. Hard pass on Butcher3 here, theme irreleveant, Sac Pawn is not going to save him.
Despite our faction having a pretty good internal balance and most casters being viable, answering gunlines can be problematic, I'm not sure you're going to find a list that just crushes the match ups you're looking to crush, but we do have a couple of options, either strong anti shooting tech, OW2, Zerkova1, Sorscha3, or overwhelming shooting, something like Vlad1 or OW2 with a lot of rockets can pull it off, Vlad1 can also help with the kiting issues and Maraudeurs are pretty cheap and good against both railless and dawnsled. I don't have an exact list in mind, and the new themeforcepocalypse might change things more than expected, so I'd wait for that to come up with a final list, but these are the options I'd explore. Our two new theme might also have interesting solutions here, Zerkova1 will probably like Flames in the dark a lot, where vengeance helps a lot with the kiting issue, and warrior of the old faith is fairly quick and has access to initiates, initiates are good.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 21, 2019 14:53:20 GMT
Good ideas!!!! I have really been thinking about vlad1....the 14 inch threat helps so much in stopping so much of the bs and rockets will do a lot of works under s&p. Very possible to get 5 heavies into the list with 9 rockets.
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Post by steeltitan on Jul 21, 2019 17:25:27 GMT
Despite our faction having a pretty good internal balance and most casters being viable, answering gunlines can be problematic, I'm not sure you're going to find a list that just crushes the match ups you're looking to crush, but we do have a couple of options, either strong anti shooting tech, OW2, Zerkova1, Sorscha3, or overwhelming shooting, something like Vlad1 or OW2 with a lot of rockets can pull it off, Vlad1 can also help with the kiting issues and Maraudeurs are pretty cheap and good against both railless and dawnsled. I don't have an exact list in mind, and the new themeforcepocalypse might change things more than expected, so I'd wait for that to come up with a final list, but these are the options I'd explore. Maybe something like this? Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Prince - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 0 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Marauder - PC: 11 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 |
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Post by sand20go on Jul 21, 2019 18:55:01 GMT
I think I have AN answer (or at least one very much worth testing. Pretty similar)
Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Prince [+28]
- Marauder [11]
- Marauder [11]
- Marauder [11]
- Greylord Adjunct [0]
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4]
- Juggernaut [13]
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]
Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6]
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6]
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [4]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)]
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
Alexia2 (7)
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Post by michael on Jul 21, 2019 19:51:06 GMT
So... what does this have to do with charity?
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Post by anderfreak on Jul 21, 2019 20:45:17 GMT
I have nothing of substance to contribute to the meat of this discussion...
However, I would like to point out "CRUCIBLE" does not have an "A" in it.
I would also like to add, just in case my suspicion is correct that you pronounce it KrooShaBel when spoken, it is pronounced KrooSiBel.
That is all. Please excuse my interjection.
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Post by zerosequence on Jul 21, 2019 22:34:21 GMT
I got to play against him at Rocky Mountain Rumble recently . I was running a OW2 Jaws list. In the end I got spanked pretty hard on scenario but he was down to 2.5 minutes on clock to my 20 minutes, and I had a turn of absolute shit dice that had they gone average I stay in the scenario game and probably clock him. So I don’t think it’s unwinnable. I wouldn’t take OW2 again because Windstorm doesn’t shut him down as much as you think it does and it lacks threat range.
I think the keys are both speed and durability. To that end there are several options. Strak1, B3, Vlad1 and Irusk2 top of my list.
With the new WGK theme I think this is our best option. We can get 4-5 Marauders or 2 Destroy/2 Marauder and still a huge chunk of WG guns. Rockets and boostable Destroyers (rat6 with artillery captains) put pressure on the tanks and speed to close the distance. Sac Pawn keeps assassination off the table.
But who runs it best? Vlad1 doesn’t keep his troops alive but he does put tremendous pressure with his Feat and SnP. He can turn 1 Feat and run jacks to push back the tanks. B3 plays a similar game but with more personal output and defensive capability. Irusk2 protects the troops and gives threat range and Feat pushes them back. Strak1 has one turn of “all in” but he can sink his jacks from way downtown and if he doesn’t die you probably have the game.
Need to build a list.
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Post by auraco on Jul 22, 2019 11:41:31 GMT
I have a quick question for all the people who've used Sorscha0, especially against gunlines, this includes steeltitan and sand20go. Are you guys really comfortable to put a melee jack on Sorscha0? This seems like a strange choice to me, since her jack doesn't benefit from Vlad's feat it's restricted to a 10'' threat range if using boundless charge, which is not exactly great if going against a gunline or an army that can kite. It also means that Sorscha needs to be way too close to the frontline for comfort if she wants to fuel her jack, and if she doesn't fuel her jack, doesn't her jack feels like dead weight? At that point why not just take a Destroyer? It doesn't need a lot of focus to keep shooting, doesn't really care about not being in Vlad's Battlegroup, contributes pretty well to the shooting with the rockets in the list. This is especially true with the new themepocalypse that will make this option not cost a free card regardless of the rest of the list. I got to play against him at Rocky Mountain Rumble recently . I was running a OW2 Jaws list. In the end I got spanked pretty hard on scenario but he was down to 2.5 minutes on clock to my 20 minutes, and I had a turn of absolute shit dice that had they gone average I stay in the scenario game and probably clock him. So I don’t think it’s unwinnable. I wouldn’t take OW2 again because Windstorm doesn’t shut him down as much as you think it does and it lacks threat range. I think the keys are both speed and durability. To that end there are several options. Strak1, B3, Vlad1 and Irusk2 top of my list. With the new WGK theme I think this is our best option. We can get 4-5 Marauders or 2 Destroy/2 Marauder and still a huge chunk of WG guns. Rockets and boostable Destroyers (rat6 with artillery captains) put pressure on the tanks and speed to close the distance. Sac Pawn keeps assassination off the table. But who runs it best? Vlad1 doesn’t keep his troops alive but he does put tremendous pressure with his Feat and SnP. He can turn 1 Feat and run jacks to push back the tanks. B3 plays a similar game but with more personal output and defensive capability. Irusk2 protects the troops and gives threat range and Feat pushes them back. Strak1 has one turn of “all in” but he can sink his jacks from way downtown and if he doesn’t die you probably have the game.
Need to build a list. I fail to see how Vlad1 and B3 play a similar game... Vlad1's game is to support his army and make them so strong offensively that he doesn't actually need defensive tech to win the game, pretty much the definition of superiority through superior firepower. B3 on the other hand does pretty much nothing for his army other than a str buff that is not all that usefull against gunlines, he wins game by bullying the board with his board presence and carefully applying his own personal melee prowess to the table. One can play into gunlines with a gunline of his own, the other is super weak against them. Can't comment on Irusk2 since I haven't really played him. Strakhov1 also seems like a bad idea to me against a gunline, he tends to want more elite jack than just simple jackspam, to have reliable overrun trigger and to get most out of the overrunning jacks, this means a reduced model count when compared to the more possibly spammy casters like Karchev or Vlad1, meaning any jacks he loses hurts him more than them and he doesn't really help protect his army against gunlines, his feat is also just a worst version of Vlad1's feat if your objective is just to try to bumrush a gunline with jacks... I would not recommend using Strahov1 against gunlines either. |
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Post by sand20go on Jul 22, 2019 13:09:40 GMT
Report from the front. Vlad1 with Rockets did pretty well. Still lost but that isn't to be unexpected against Juris. He was testing out a variant so pressgangers rather than Halbies. That forced things to clump a bit that allowed a great deviation that killed three rockets in one go but that was my error and correctable. Second game of the night list shot a legion list off the table with some great Maurader slams to knock stuff down before volley time.
Main issue against Juris was with that varient transmutation went on his ashen veil light. Little to be done about that. List will struggle into hard targets that can get def up unless I have the opportunity to CRA (they were busy trying to kill trancers).
Alexia2 is very much an MVP here. Against Juris I used her to kill Mosby (no tough) and against Kallus I used thrallnado to finish off his caster. Thanks all that suggested pvlad with rockets - it does seem to do some work.
(BTW - not sure that it isn't better to shoot the supressor at all costs - you want to be able to deny him rust....which then reduces the ability of the raillesses after feat to kill heavies)
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Post by sand20go on Jul 22, 2019 13:17:02 GMT
I have a quick question for all the people who've used Sorscha0, especially against gunlines, this includes steeltitan and sand20go . Are you guys really comfortable to put a melee jack on Sorscha0? This seems like a strange choice to me, since her jack doesn't benefit from Vlad's feat it's restricted to a 10'' threat range if using boundless charge, which is not exactly great if going against a gunline or an army that can kite. It also means that Sorscha needs to be way too close to the frontline for comfort if she wants to fuel her jack, and if she doesn't fuel her jack, doesn't her jack feels like dead weight? At that point why not just take a Destroyer? It doesn't need a lot of focus to keep shooting, doesn't really care about not being in Vlad's Battlegroup, contributes pretty well to the shooting with the rockets in the list. This is especially true with the new themepocalypse that will make this option not cost a free card regardless of the rest of the list. I got to play against him at Rocky Mountain Rumble recently . I was running a OW2 Jaws list. In the end I got spanked pretty hard on scenario but he was down to 2.5 minutes on clock to my 20 minutes, and I had a turn of absolute shit dice that had they gone average I stay in the scenario game and probably clock him. So I don’t think it’s unwinnable. I wouldn’t take OW2 again because Windstorm doesn’t shut him down as much as you think it does and it lacks threat range. I think the keys are both speed and durability. To that end there are several options. Strak1, B3, Vlad1 and Irusk2 top of my list. With the new WGK theme I think this is our best option. We can get 4-5 Marauders or 2 Destroy/2 Marauder and still a huge chunk of WG guns. Rockets and boostable Destroyers (rat6 with artillery captains) put pressure on the tanks and speed to close the distance. Sac Pawn keeps assassination off the table. But who runs it best? Vlad1 doesn’t keep his troops alive but he does put tremendous pressure with his Feat and SnP. He can turn 1 Feat and run jacks to push back the tanks. B3 plays a similar game but with more personal output and defensive capability. Irusk2 protects the troops and gives threat range and Feat pushes them back. Strak1 has one turn of “all in” but he can sink his jacks from way downtown and if he doesn’t die you probably have the game.
Need to build a list. I fail to see how Vlad1 and B3 play a similar game... Vlad1's game is to support his army and make them so strong offensively that he doesn't actually need defensive tech to win the game, pretty much the definition of superiority through superior firepower. B3 on the other hand does pretty much nothing for his army other than a str buff that is not all that usefull against gunlines, he wins game by bullying the board with his board presence and carefully applying his own personal melee prowess to the table. One can play into gunlines with a gunline of his own, the other is super weak against them. Can't comment on Irusk2 since I haven't really played him. Strakhov1 also seems like a bad idea to me against a gunline, he tends to want more elite jack than just simple jackspam, to have reliable overrun trigger and to get most out of the overrunning jacks, this means a reduced model count when compared to the more possibly spammy casters like Karchev or Vlad1, meaning any jacks he loses hurts him more than them and he doesn't really help protect his army against gunlines, his feat is also just a worst version of Vlad1's feat if your objective is just to try to bumrush a gunline with jacks... I would not recommend using Strahov1 against gunlines either. Having used her a bunch I am coming to that perspective. And it isn't JUST that she is squishy (she is) and thus wants to be back....it is also that she REALLY needs to be BC on a stick and that means within 12 inches of everything where that needs to be applied. Right now though I can't EASILY make the points work but I am going to try. Especially in a Vlad1 gun line having a possible boosted POW 14 under S&P would be valuable and a threat that would further demand that they get closer. Heresy but who isn't pulling his weight (yet) is Joe. S&P fixes (to a degree) the issues with rat. Tough into THIS match up is largely lost. Since I can't stack with things like battlelust I am not sure getting hitting up to POW 12 really matters...losing him would allow for Jugg to destroyer swap for S0 and maybe something else. |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 22, 2019 13:38:14 GMT
Why not just a Rager on S0?
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Post by borderprince on Jul 22, 2019 14:04:44 GMT
Why not just a Rager on S0? I think the issue is that you are paying 10 points for a shield guard jack in a theme where shield guards are less necessary because of Sac Pawn for the caster and Joe. It feels like you are paying 10 points for a body guard for Sorscha0 alone.
That said, I'm considering it for the Vlad1 WGK list I'm mulling when the new version of the theme is official. Mainly because I have 10 points left to get a jack for Sorscha0 and the options then are pretty limited. I hope that SnP means that it will get some work done with the gun in the mid-game and/or use ARM20 to toe a zone.
auracoSimple answer for me has often been "points". I've had trouble scrapping the points for a Destroyer, especially when also taking a Gun Carriage (or two).
Besides that, I haven't found the melee jack issue to be a major problem. Against gunlines, the usual Vlad1 feat turn has been: allocate 1 to 2 of the BG jacks; Feat; Sorcha0 Boundless Charges those two jacks; two jacks rocket forward and do good work (fairly reliably taking out two BEs if you use Marauders for example). The remaining jack in Vlad's BG doesn't get much from the feat, but that's OK - the feat is used to get a good piece trading advantage from a considerable distance. Sorscha0's jack is kept back for the later game, when a 10" threat range is usually fine.
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You can hunt that white whale on your own 
