doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 19, 2019 13:23:18 GMT
Thorn Gun Mages are a unit and the Archon is a solo. You can take both. But beware, because this way lies jank. Huzzah! And I fear not the jank, for the jank is with me.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Jul 19, 2019 16:27:27 GMT
Other considerations I've had were double Daughters of the Flame with HR/Reznik2. Decent punch with HR, and able to clear scores of troops with Rez2. The speed is also very useful. It worked very well in my Warriors of the Old Faith testing, but I found that the staying power was lacking, so the rest of the list would have to be anchor pieces and scenario workhorses.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 19, 2019 16:54:19 GMT
Thanks for the kind words everyone (and for catching my typos).
'dox, I heartily recommend Cyrenia in Guardians. I think that EI is slightly better for her and FM way better, but Guardians is fun. SPD 10 Flame Bringers are a hell of a drug. And Positive Charge is really amazing for the theme. There isn't a piece of her kit that goes to waste in the theme (granted, it doesn't in FM either, which is sort of the issue).
I am looking forward to getting two Archons and seeing what horsecrap can be unlocked. My Faithful Masses writeup should be done early next week and it's going to have one big ol' whackadoo list in it if the Archon truly has Fuel for the Flames. I am a bit miffed that the Archon isn't an option in this theme so that we could buddy up, but it's not the end of the world. I'm glad he expanded outside of Warriors and CM.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 19, 2019 16:57:29 GMT
Other considerations I've had were double Daughters of the Flame with HR/Reznik2. Decent punch with HR, and able to clear scores of troops with Rez2. The speed is also very useful. It worked very well in my Warriors of the Old Faith testing, but I found that the staying power was lacking, so the rest of the list would have to be anchor pieces and scenario workhorses. Do you mean Flame Bringers? Because you can't take Daughters in Warriors. Double FB is a fine look with Reznik2 - I just think he is much better served elsewhere. If he's going to run Hierophant-less, Warriors is a great fit for him because he can get double FBs and then some Drakhuns and Champions for that ironclad scenario presence. Double FB with HR is fine and solidly good. I specifically didn't build that because I already had. Twice. Figured some variety was better than "just take double FB with everyone." Which, frankly, is an entirely legitimate (and imo the best) way to run Guardians, 'caster agnostic.
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Post by mydnight on Jul 19, 2019 22:08:51 GMT
With the changes to requisition points forgeguard+Priests are viable in Guardians, particularly with a caster like Cyrenia or Thyra.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 20, 2019 0:52:35 GMT
Attendant Priests can not be taken in Guardians.
Even if they could, I do not recommend Forgeguard as a rule.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Jul 22, 2019 20:51:51 GMT
Do you mean Flame Bringers? Because you can't take Daughters in Warriors. Yes, I meant the pony daughters, not the walky daughters. Considering how down I was on them upon release, I'm really happy with their performance. Reznik 2 feat turn makes the girls into the most mobile bombs and they have the speed to let him go more forward, too.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 23, 2019 14:59:17 GMT
In Mk.2 they were pretty bad. In Mk.3 though, they're straight fire. One of my favorite units.
After the completely disappointing spoil of Creator's Might, I may amend this article because I'm pretty sure CM is now our worst theme. Oy.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 27, 2019 19:51:07 GMT
Ok, so as promised I took the following today, in an effort to disprove the idea of "stop trying to make Malekus and Cleansers work":
Malekus - Guardians Eye of Truth Hand of Judgement Revelator Menite Archon max Cleansers + UA Nicia support stuff (min choir, wrack, vassals, mechaniks, whatever I don't have the exact list in front of me)
Unfortunately, my opponent decided to try out the new Ravens of War theme with Llyth1 and a bunch of stalkers. So all my cleansers (except 2) were killed top of turn 2 before they could take a shot, as apparently Ashen Veil does nothing to protect from dudes with Hunter. The two surviving CLeansers got attacks off (one getting 4 under the spray, one getting 3), but DEF14 & 15 is a bit more than they can handle, so I think each killed 1 model (though one of those was the Grotesque solo, which is nice).
So, I am going to go ahead and say the results were inconclusive. While not the absolute worst match-up (as he really, REALLY couldn't deal with Revelator) for the list, it was just about the worst match-up in regards to testing the viability of Cleansers.
Will try again next time I play, hopefully with a better match-up.
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Post by paradox on Jul 27, 2019 20:58:05 GMT
Yeah, DEF11 Ashen Veil is up there with failed early MKIII concepts. These dudes REALLY need CID or dynamic update love.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jul 27, 2019 21:31:23 GMT
They really don't need much either. They thrive under Eye of Menoth or Feora1 (if they're close enough), but not really anywhere else, which suggests to me that they need to be able to hit more reliably. (I've had fun with cleansers under Sevvy1)
As I've said previously, Guardians just feels incomplete. There is no support for cleansers that can't be better applied elsewhere, and the theme benefits just pass them by. A Cleanser solo that supports them would do them the world of good.
I'd love to see Malekus actually do something for them, for example. Give him tactician, veteran leader or even an elite cadre, he is meant to be their leader after all.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 27, 2019 22:07:23 GMT
That's the problem with Cleansers. They prey on targets that just don't exist. These being DEF 12 single wound infantry. So many times, they die before getting much of note done. A lot of factions instead prey on them. You practically can't drop them at all into Cygnar, Protectorate, Ret, Mercs, CG, Circle, or Legion. And so many native pairs exist even within the factions not listed above that make them a poor choice to take in general.
Khador has WGK and Jaws. One shoots them away, the other is heavy spam.
Cryx has Scourge, with Satyxis Gunslingers ruining them.
CoC has DI and a ton of heavies that don't care about Cleanser shots.
Trolls have some admitted problems, but immunity to Continuous Effects stuffs them a bit.
Skorne just won't play Exalted into you (Exalted is a poor PoM matchup anyway).
Minions have the ability to play beast heavy enough to ruin your day.
And Grymkin just plays Dreamer with Clocks and superior sprays.
Much as I love them, I have problems finding any reason to take Cleansers currently.
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Post by mydnight on Jul 27, 2019 22:21:20 GMT
Cleansers can't be played as a frontline unit unfortunately. With casters that have BOTH damage and accuracy buffs they work, given their impressive threat range for a spray unit. But their favourable matchups are few. I presume they are okay with a 'hermit build' and Hand of Judgement in guardians.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jul 27, 2019 23:16:55 GMT
Well, look at all you Debbie-Downers on Cleansers.
I am personally of the opinion that, at least with Malekus and either Hand of Judgement or an Archon, their preferred prey bumps up from DEF12 single wound infantry to DEF12 anything. Under those conditions, even if you don't use Scourge, they can reasonably kill almost any heavy (averaging 6 damage per hit vs ARM18, with about 50% hitting).
HOWEVER, I would certainly never take them outside of Malekus.
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Post by paradox on Jul 28, 2019 0:59:15 GMT
I have a list with cleansers I like. Sevy1 no theme. It still doesnt fit even after theme remix. But VoJ + Sevy1 + cleansers and sunbursts is fun. EoM and DW really help cleansers. Plus zombie sprays.
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