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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 19, 2019 14:20:22 GMT
All of that is true; the Grolar is a good jack! Like I said; it comes down to what you feel your list needs. The Grolar is often the better assassin, but it has zero chance of getting my Doom Reavers or Greylords through that cloud wall. Also, a lot of the time I'm facing Menoth or Circle wolds. They've all got anti-KD out of the wazoo, so the Grolar would be less reliable an assassin for me. I agree, and I want to like Torch, it's just slightly annoying that the ONLY time he will ever see the table is with Strakhov (and usually only Strak1) because of themes, and even then there's at least two jacks that are VERY stiff competition for the "warjack Strakhov relies on to execute his big move" position in the Spriggan (2" reach, Bulldoze to better reach the target) and the Grolar (full time Pathfinder, harder hitting, way more attacks, can potentially reach even farther thanks to Ram moves), and outside of that niche the competition is even more fierce. In MkII Torch didn't see much play, but before the Andy and the Grolar came out he at least had a niche (in my mind at least) as a hard-hitting warjack with good accuracy (iirc he was MAT 7 to the Juggernaut's MAT 6, plus of course Sustained Attack) and native Pathfinder - remember that back then we tended to take just one warjack, so a generalist made more sense than it does now. In MkIII he got his hitting power nerfed while the Grolar's hitting power got buffed (higher MAT and ROF), the Kodiak got cheaper, every other jack (except the Spriggan and clams) got their MAT buffed, many models got their DEF nerfed, we got better at running multiple jacks so could take specialists rather than generalists, and themes limited his potential caster pool to just Strakhov (who doesn't even need Torch's Pathfinder as much as some other casters might). Plus changes to defensive use of Focus meant that getting more attacks was even more important. So yeah, in mid-MkII I argued that he had a niche. Right now? I don't know. He just feels like a bit of a mess: he's an expensive heavy that doesn't hit very hard, has a bunch of guns that are weak and short ranged, has some different tools that are mostly lesser versions of what other jacks have (flares but no Dual Attack so worse than the Spriggan, Pathfinder but only on the charge so worse than the Grolar). Sure, immunities, but those are highly situational. Sprint is nice, but doesn't really help him carry out his main role in a Strakhov list (i.e. game-closer), which is the only place he has actually gets Sprint. I just feel like he needs one unique reliable ability that defines him and gives him a place, rather than a random mix of tricks that other jacks do better. Buffing his damage would make Sprint feel more reliable and worthwhile at least, and you wouldn't miss the Grolar as much. Or you could replace Sprint with Bulldoze as his bond and he suddenly becomes a much better tool for Strakhov's assassination play. Alchemical Mask might not really do much for his game plan (though being able to charge through clouds is not nothing for projecting assassination threats, which is a big part of Strakhov's strength), but it is very thematic and would be unique for a warjack. Another idea I've heard is to give him different grenades to the Spriggan so he serves a different utility. I dunno. I don't mean to complain, I just wish that I could take Torch and feel like he's the best tool for the job I have in mind for him, rather than feeling like I'm basically compromising. I can take other jacks and feel like I have a purpose for them, a game plan, but for Torch I'm basically thinking "IF I face a caster who's immune to knockdown then I'll be glad I took him over the Grolar - the rest of the time I won't. And maybe I can do something with Sprint?". I do think he makes a lot of sense when you take him WITH a Grolar though, so you can pick the right tool for the job. Bit pricey of course, but I guess Strakhov prefers quality over quantity.
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Post by auraco on Aug 19, 2019 14:35:27 GMT
Thing is, half our character jacks are mostly a mess, nothing to say about Ruin he's what a character jack should be, Beast09 is cool not sure I'd run him with anyone else than Sorscha but he's not a mess either. Behemoth is just too expansive but still bring something interesting to thetable. The mess is with Torch, Drago and Black Ivan, sure Torch is probably the less messy one of the list, but all of Soul Samurai concern about it are valid, to me he doesn't do anything interesting enough to warant his high point tag. Even with Strakhov1, the caster to run toch, I'd rather just have a Grolar. I don't even think I need to get into why Drago and Black Ivan are messes, anyone can read their cards and get why.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 19, 2019 15:25:28 GMT
I feel the Overrun and sprint shenanigans are generally overlooked with Torch and Strakhov1, especially when combined with Superiority. 12" of out of activation movement on a Khador heavy is excellent! Yes, but it's Sprint on a p+S 17 expensive heavy on a caster with no damage buffs; to really get value out of it you need to devote some extra resources into, like at least a damage buff or softening something up with some quality shooting. At that point maybe just a regular Juggernaut with regular Overrun is better value? I dunno. I'm just not sure what you're actually going to kill with Torch. I guess if you're saving Torch for late game assassinations then it's nice to be able to still get value out of him in the meantime by killing small things and Sprinting to relative safety (even though it might have to just be a 4" sprint as it might not be worth putting that much extra focus into whatever he's killing)? A good math exercise (busy day at salt mine or I would) would be to run Torch into the new 14 point horror that sprays. He is immune to the corrosion/arm debuff and it would be interesting to see how many focus (2 I think) he needs to get over an 80% kill rate on the thing. Then compare that to the Jugger - especially the Jugger trying to hit it under Agethea's feat. At least in my meta we are going to be seeing horrors ;-)
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 19, 2019 15:38:31 GMT
Thing is, half our character jacks are mostly a mess, nothing to say about Ruin he's what a character jack should be, Beast09 is cool not sure I'd run him with anyone else than Sorscha but he's not a mess either. Behemoth is just too expansive but still bring something interesting to thetable. The mess is with Torch, Drago and Black Ivan, sure Torch is probably the less messy one of the list, but all of Soul Samurai concern about it are valid, to me he doesn't do anything interesting enough to warant his high point tag. Even with Strakhov1, the caster to run toch, I'd rather just have a Grolar. I don't even think I need to get into why Drago and Black Ivan are messes, anyone can read their cards and get why. I can and do happily take Beast 09 with any caster: he hits as hard as any Khador jack who's name isn't Behemoth, but he also murders infantry; he's just an all-round beatstick. Plus he's a great assassin due to his accuracy and potential to freeze a caster. Hyper Aggressive is a bit strange but it can help him get into enemy lines where he kind of wants to be, either by netting him extra movement or discouraging the opponent from shooting him on the approach; it makes him a little bit interesting without being the most straight-forwards ability he could have. Shield Guard is a bit strange but fits his fluff as being very protective of Sorscha and synergises somewhat with Hyper Aggressive. Behemoth has big guns and big fists; he's just the absolute best at the two basics of hitting and shooting. Simple, no frills, super-premium jack who's arguably a prototype Colossal. No mess there. Ruin is everything that Butcher wants, and just a great beatstick with an "anti-magic" theme. Yeah, the protective function of cancelling spells but only when fueled with enemy souls is a bit strange and does not fit his "Boundless Charge beatstick" nature, but again it's a thematic fit and works in the context of protecting a front-line caster like Butcher. Torch kind of made sense when he was originally released, though he was a bit conservative (Relentless Charge instead of straight pathfinder, no Alchemical Mask): he was an Assault Kommando. Then power creep left him behind (coughgrolarcough), and when the change to MkIII happened PP couldn't seem to decide what to do with him. He also suffered due to the changes to the Decimator. Black Ivan was a very strange one when he was released: a DEF 12 Dodging Khador jack with Bulldoze? Pretty random. But they were all useful tools and he got interesting with the right caster. Then in MkIII PP apparently realised that he didn't make sense and changed him in a way that was less interesting and still made no sense. Then didn't update him when they updated the Destroyer, leaving him severly overpriced. Also Harkevich is kind of weird too, so it's hard to say what Black Ivan should be. Probably the worst jack in MkIII? Drago is... I don't know what happened there. What exactly did PP think people were going to do with him? Maybe they should have given him a speed buff or something; make him a fragile (for Khador) but fast beatstick. Instead they put an ability that uses focus on an expensive (for a Berserker) warjack that explodes when it uses focus. And then they didn't update him even when they changed the Berserker multiple times. Personally I've always wanted to use him under Strakhov for funsies: a DEF 15 SPD 6 Berserking Overrunning model is some funny jank for a casual game, but that's probably all he's good for?
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Post by auraco on Aug 19, 2019 16:46:01 GMT
Yes, but it's Sprint on a p+S 17 expensive heavy on a caster with no damage buffs; to really get value out of it you need to devote some extra resources into, like at least a damage buff or softening something up with some quality shooting. At that point maybe just a regular Juggernaut with regular Overrun is better value? I dunno. I'm just not sure what you're actually going to kill with Torch. I guess if you're saving Torch for late game assassinations then it's nice to be able to still get value out of him in the meantime by killing small things and Sprinting to relative safety (even though it might have to just be a 4" sprint as it might not be worth putting that much extra focus into whatever he's killing)? A good math exercise (busy day at salt mine or I would) would be to run Torch into the new 14 point horror that sprays. He is immune to the corrosion/arm debuff and it would be interesting to see how many focus (2 I think) he needs to get over an 80% kill rate on the thing. Then compare that to the Jugger - especially the Jugger trying to hit it under Agethea's feat. At least in my meta we are going to be seeing horrors ;-) Sand, do you have a serious case of the tunnel vision? Sure we'll see the horror, but infernals are one out of all the faction, the specific case you're saying with that one caster is down to even more specifics, if you play against some of your friends and know what they're playing sure you can tech against some specific stuff. But if you're going to a tournament where you might no even play against infernals, are you really going to take Torch just on the off chance you run into that? I like to plan against broader match ups than that when planning for competitive play. That's why unelss torch changes I will always for for the grolar over him.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 19, 2019 18:18:38 GMT
A good math exercise (busy day at salt mine or I would) would be to run Torch into the new 14 point horror that sprays. He is immune to the corrosion/arm debuff and it would be interesting to see how many focus (2 I think) he needs to get over an 80% kill rate on the thing. Then compare that to the Jugger - especially the Jugger trying to hit it under Agethea's feat. At least in my meta we are going to be seeing horrors ;-) Sand, do you have a serious case of the tunnel vision? Sure we'll see the horror, but infernals are one out of all the faction, the specific case you're saying with that one caster is down to even more specifics, if you play against some of your friends and know what they're playing sure you can tech against some specific stuff. But if you're going to a tournament where you might no even play against infernals, are you really going to take Torch just on the off chance you run into that? I like to plan against broader match ups than that when planning for competitive play. That's why unelss torch changes I will always for for the grolar over him. ughhh..... Maybe. 1) As Chris Davies reminds us (and no, he is not the alpha and omega and his ego is plenty big but it IS good advice) the meta YOU care about is YOUR meta. For me that means I can nearly ignore cryx, not stew at all about Cygnar, but have to absolutely tech against Crucible Guard, Infernals, Retribution, Circle and Skorne. I don't really have to worry about the mirror. Legion hasn't been seen in Months. 2) You are PAYING for Torch's (and Strakov's) immunities. That is how PP Prices models 3) Desolator is a key piece in layering on debuffs to allow them to hit hard. 4) More critically - Khador's "faction wide" issue is high value gunlines. While many shots are not typed, a fair number are. Grolar with no immunity suffers from that problem.....encouraging your opponent since that is the threat to shoot at it a LOT. Strakov, like a classic Haley 2 Gunline in Heavy Metal suffers from having a relatively few high value models. Start removing even just 1 or 2 and the scariness of the list dramatically falls off. YEs. The Grolar _IS_ better against Hordes and has the possibility of killing off a warlack who can be knocked down and who isn't camping a ridiculous amount. That can make (a bit) of difference in fury efficiency. But I am not sure a HUGE amount - since so much of at least MY current meta revolves around Bones (constructs can't frenzy), Battle Engines (independent) and then just being good back line casters who are living the dream with their gunline. FLip side of the above? I definately have Vlad2 in my pairing. So absent some strange list chicken moments it isn't clear I need the flares....since I am unlikely to get an army which relies upon cloud walls to deliver stuff. Far more likely, if a double wolves pair, their best controlling gunline to play shooting gallery at the doomies.
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