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Post by sand20go on Jul 13, 2019 15:11:12 GMT
Taking this along with my "standard" Vlad2 Wolves. I am digging on the idea that my Victor threatens 17 ;-) (Superiority (2)+ BC (2)+Feat (4)+ Sp 4+ Charge (3)+ Reach (2)= #winning. Main issue maybe using Spriggan rather than Grolar. Bulldoze vs. extra attacks to blow through Fury/Transfers/Focus. I think an argument either way. conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0x7ckWkTkUf8njhFhFlOkW868e___-0K77f8nj8h8hnf89nf89nfnfnhchKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Strakhov 1] Kommander Oleg Strakhov [+28] - Juggernaut [13] - Marauder [11] - Spriggan [17] - Victor [34] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Juggernaut [13] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Widowmaker Scouts [8] Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Wolves of Winter [Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion [+27] - Victor [34] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Koldun Lord [0(4)] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Greylord Outriders (max) [17] Kayazy Eliminators [5]
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 13, 2019 15:57:01 GMT
I mean, your Spriggan threatens 23" non-linearly and has Bulldoze. The Victor has the lowest threat range of your jacks since it can't Overrun!
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 13, 2019 18:08:21 GMT
Main issue maybe using Spriggan rather than Grolar. The issue is that MAT 8 is not really reliable enough against DEF 15-16 casters. Compared to MAT 9 Knockdown with a bunch more attacks to burn through transfers...
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Post by sand20go on Jul 13, 2019 20:36:29 GMT
Good game nim er one. Lost to juris and Locke but made a mistake with sorschas jugger that was dumb. Fun to threaten that far. Onto lunch.....
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Post by auraco on Jul 13, 2019 21:05:36 GMT
Wait? No Murder girls with Strakhov? Also I'm really not sold on Strakhov1 against a shooty army like Crucible guard, Strakhov1 tends to favor less numbers in favor of more elite models, that's something that don't usually do well against guns.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 14, 2019 14:08:51 GMT
Just a quick recap
Brookhurst games is about 1.5 hours away from the Casa so game day decision of whether to head there or just enjoy my little bit of Southern California paradise (i live a very spoiled life in San Diego suburb.) But I was itching to get some competitive games in so off I went.
Game 1 - Juris
My white whale. Kirk to my Khan. The mountain that taunts me on the horizon. He had his standard Syvestro and Locke pairing. I knew I could not play Doomies into it so it was Strakov. He dropped Locke.
I won the roll and got stuff well up the board. Wolves will make it all the better with the hot swaps of superiority and sentry. We discussed threat ranges and he actually backed up!!! But I made some mistakes. For no good reason I fed him a some widows for road to war and made a horrible mistake with S0 jack which could have allowed me to get up on points. He ended up getting a Jugger that was overexposed with his light under red line (and some shots) and then feated. I probably should have countered but instead decided to time walk it. Bad mistake. He then carved out the rest.
I think I do better and actually could win if I get the jugger scoring a turn earlier and don't feed the widows to him. Need to play it again.
Game 2 - Into Gaspy 1 with Raiders.
Here I was at a disadvantage because we just don't see crxy much anymore. But that many models I am dropping Vlad2. Won roll and Ponies did a lot of work into his raiders. He came back though with a TON of shooting and the ambush. Grindy game but I just could not get my doomies back to his shooting stuff. After he collapsed the flank where he ambushed I was starting to lose scenario. Did have a hail mary assination threat...missed by I think 7.
The key here was not really respecting the shooting and using wind ravenger and Pie plates of nope to effect. But on replay I feel really good about this matchup - and especially now that I understand that I can use focus to avoid getting pinged to death by feedback.
So zero and 2. Leaving and getting some beach time is sounding good....but I press on.
Game 3. More Cryx. He has Skare3 and Skare1. I was hoping Skare3 cause I have never seen her. I get Skare1 though and Drop Vlad2.
Better game. I use screening to better effect. Ponies with Hand of Fate do pony hand of fate things. The Defensive strike on the knights is really good and hurts doomies but enough get in after misses to then besker stuff to smithereens. Victor on a hot swap with the Hand of Fate puts damage into the Kraken. Three doomies almost take it down but miss. Biggest mistake there was not putting a super serum on bad santa to have him WALK 9 and Brittle frost the Kraken. I think that would have done the deed. But with a screen the Kraken would have had to trample to get to Victor. Even if that happens and he kills it with both battle engine and the feat i think I have BARELY enough to come back. But regardless I haave scenario pressure on the collapsed flanks. Get those, start scoring and win 5-0
Game 4.
Buddy and I want strakov practice so even though Doomies are the right dropp into his menoth weapon master spam (I would have CRUSHED them) I got with Strakov. He screens stuff so I can't go for turn 2. But I do get the Victor into Judie and collapse a flank. This time S0 is not an idiot and I start getting scenario pressure. Bastions and Cinerators start the long crawl back from taking a jack alpha and start removing pieces. But in a wonderous move at the end, up by 4 but severly down on points.....
Strakov charges in, kills 2 bastions. Sprints out of the way. Adjunct runs to contest zone sevy1 was in. I score. Win by 5.
So 2-2. Strakov list needs some tweeks but may not be worth thinking about until GenCon and the remix - The koldun lord will give him a CHEAP damage fixer. They also will add to the focus efficiency - essentially allowing Strakov to cast 3 overruns a turn while keeping jacks up and running....or hot swapping Superiority. However, that means giving up S0 - something I am not sure about.
All in all good. But what I really need is a good CG list. I just don't know how to build a pair that can take on Syvestro and those 2 Raillesses or Locke and her ability to remove with prejudice key jacks with a redlined Vulcan, 8 jackhammers and then her feat. I think a lot of other CG builds that are out there (rocketmen, Baldwin) are less effective. There are answers that are not at all suboptimal into other things. But I am having a hard time figuring out the off list to the Vlad2 Wolves that can cover CG and then Shooty retribution (because the Dawnsleds can easily remove doomreavers).
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 15, 2019 9:32:06 GMT
Something I've been mulling over is Malakov2, but I'm not sure if it's a Jaws or Wolves list yet. He's extremely difficult to kill with shooting, and it's nigh-impossible to kill him or his jacks in melee under his feat. Barring Shadow Bind or Stationary you'll probably only take one hit, and even a Redlined Vulcan isn't getting anything done there.
I feel like if I'm running a jack-heavy hybrid list I'll want Wolves for all the great support options, but at the same time Malakov would love mass Pathfinder to go with Escort. Jaws has great options for the battle plans and Tac Sup, but it's not like Wolves is far behind. He likes both Doomies and Kayazy.
Worth considering, I think. Almost a shame I'm waiting until August to play again
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Post by sand20go on Jul 15, 2019 16:58:30 GMT
Something I've been mulling over is Malakov2, but I'm not sure if it's a Jaws or Wolves list yet. He's extremely difficult to kill with shooting, and it's nigh-impossible to kill him or his jacks in melee under his feat. Barring Shadow Bind or Stationary you'll probably only take one hit, and even a Redlined Vulcan isn't getting anything done there. I feel like if I'm running a jack-heavy hybrid list I'll want Wolves for all the great support options, but at the same time Malakov would love mass Pathfinder to go with Escort. Jaws has great options for the battle plans and Tac Sup, but it's not like Wolves is far behind. He likes both Doomies and Kayazy. Worth considering, I think. Almost a shame I'm waiting until August to play again Problem with Andy2 into Crucible Guard is that it feels like generally the same problem with Harkovich (and maybe not even that good) - leverage longer than Khador threat ranges to force you to feat defensively and then back off and ride it out and then hit you the next turn.
I need to try Vlad1 with all the shooting. I wonder if that is the approach - just to try to shoot as much of it off the table as possible with 9 (12?) rockets.
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Post by auraco on Jul 15, 2019 17:21:25 GMT
Something I've been mulling over is Malakov2, but I'm not sure if it's a Jaws or Wolves list yet. He's extremely difficult to kill with shooting, and it's nigh-impossible to kill him or his jacks in melee under his feat. Barring Shadow Bind or Stationary you'll probably only take one hit, and even a Redlined Vulcan isn't getting anything done there. I feel like if I'm running a jack-heavy hybrid list I'll want Wolves for all the great support options, but at the same time Malakov would love mass Pathfinder to go with Escort. Jaws has great options for the battle plans and Tac Sup, but it's not like Wolves is far behind. He likes both Doomies and Kayazy. Worth considering, I think. Almost a shame I'm waiting until August to play again Problem with Andy2 into Crucible Guard is that it feels like generally the same problem with Harkovich (and maybe not even that good) - leverage longer than Khador threat ranges to force you to feat defensively and then back off and ride it out and then hit you the next turn.
I need to try Vlad1 with all the shooting. I wonder if that is the approach - just to try to shoot as much of it off the table as possible with 9 (12?) rockets.
There are basically two approach to take when trying to deal with heavy shooting, anti shooting defensive tech or overwhelming offence, Vlad1 with the rockets does the later pretty well.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 15, 2019 17:53:38 GMT
Problem with Andy2 into Crucible Guard is that it feels like generally the same problem with Harkovich (and maybe not even that good) - leverage longer than Khador threat ranges to force you to feat defensively and then back off and ride it out and then hit you the next turn.
I need to try Vlad1 with all the shooting. I wonder if that is the approach - just to try to shoot as much of it off the table as possible with 9 (12?) rockets.
There are basically two approach to take when trying to deal with heavy shooting, anti shooting defensive tech or overwhelming offense, Vlad1 with the rockets does the later pretty well. That is my take. CG GENERALLY lacks the kind of defensive buffs that will help it weather out the storm. The alchemists CAN cloud up but that doesn't block LOS. They can bring the Vanguard's for shield guard but that seems a waste of points. Have to put it on the table at some point and try.....
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jul 15, 2019 18:54:19 GMT
There are basically two approach to take when trying to deal with heavy shooting, anti shooting defensive tech or overwhelming offense, Vlad1 with the rockets does the later pretty well. That is my take. CG GENERALLY lacks the kind of defensive buffs that will help it weather out the storm. The alchemists CAN cloud up but that doesn't block LOS. They can bring the Vanguard's for shield guard but that seems a waste of points. Have to put it on the table at some point and try..... I do want to test this MU out. Another local Khador player thinks that is Khador's best answer to CG. I disagree (because I think the Rockets get massacred too quickly to be combat effective), but it's one of those "need to see it on the table" paradigms. Can you play this week to test it out? Otherwise, this weekend at GE!
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Post by sand20go on Jul 15, 2019 20:21:00 GMT
That is my take. CG GENERALLY lacks the kind of defensive buffs that will help it weather out the storm. The alchemists CAN cloud up but that doesn't block LOS. They can bring the Vanguard's for shield guard but that seems a waste of points. Have to put it on the table at some point and try..... I do want to test this MU out. Another local Khador player thinks that is Khador's best answer to CG. I disagree (because I think the Rockets get massacred too quickly to be combat effective), but it's one of those "need to see it on the table" paradigms. Can you play this week to test it out? Otherwise, this weekend at GE! Possibly - however we are leaving on vacation next week and I may be focused in on that. I will know more as things progress. Of course time spent helping you prepare for WTC is time NOT spent painting OW2 - so I can play non-garbage khador mode ;-)
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Post by sand20go on Jul 15, 2019 20:53:02 GMT
I do want to test this MU out. Another local Khador player thinks that is Khador's best answer to CG. I disagree (because I think the Rockets get massacred too quickly to be combat effective), but it's one of those "need to see it on the table" paradigms. Can you play this week to test it out? Otherwise, this weekend at GE! Possibly - however we are leaving on vacation next week and I may be focused in on that. I will know more as things progress. Of course time spent helping you prepare for WTC is time NOT spent painting OW2 - so I can play non-garbage khador mode ;-)
BTW - we have to think about how to generate truly meaningful data/evidence. A railless hit by 9 rockets, with no shield guard, dies 90.6% of the time under Signs and Portents according to buy and boost. That didn't account for Joe's speech - that probably gets it up just a bit higher. With a threat of 20 the question is how to position the raillesses so that Khador can't get that many into it (or substitute Mortar shots or CRAs from the Rifles). It is likely that SOME of those rockets are under tough and no sleeping on the approach. To me this comes down to the following questions (I am assuming that this is Sylvesro):
How well Khador spreads out and then the generally random issues of whether the 2 shots from the DBRs and the 2 Cannons from the Railess drift (or do not drift) well. Drift into rockets and then it feels like you are going to do well. And then the end game - where a TON of WG are off the table, the Raillesses are probably gone as well and it comes down to a small number of models. I think that favors CG in most situations because S. has a longer threat range, I think the DBRs are better than the mortars and you have a great tarpit unit in the Halbies that the WGI are going too struggle to remove. And you can, as the game goes on, leverage revive to stay scenario relevent. It isn't a HUGE advantage to CG but it still feels like it is. Guess some of this depends upon that Vlad outhreats things with - and can he leverage THAT so rockets can somehow get more than 1 turn of shooting.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jul 16, 2019 8:33:05 GMT
Based on your last thoughts is OW2 in WGK worth a shot? She can prevent the drifts being too mean. You loose out on S&P (would need to check how the maths changes), but you keep more models alive against the enemy shooting for longer.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by auraco on Jul 16, 2019 10:14:53 GMT
Based on your last thoughts is OW2 in WGK worth a shot? She can prevent the drifts being too mean. You loose out on S&P (would need to check how the maths changes), but you keep more models alive against the enemy shooting for longer. Cheers, Dave Curse of shadow is also a thing, but yeah even with all the sprays, wind storm is not usually wasted against crucible guard.
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