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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 11, 2019 9:42:36 GMT
TRIGGERED
But in all seriousness, I'm keen on the general concept of Wolves jack lists. I think they could work for Kozlov and Strakhov1 as well, although they certainly want some Doomies in the mix. As a matter of personal preference, the question this list is asking me is, “why aren’t you running Strakhov instead.” I would rather scream forward with a horde of doomreavers and jacks, and get the alpha, rather than take Harkevich with a plan of taking it on the chin. I think I like the idea of Harkevich better as a neat trick in WG after the changes, where you can load up on rockets, field guns, a gun carriage and destroyers and use your Broadsides to shoot all of the knocked down things. (OK still probably a trap). I guess it's down to a difference in playstyle. If you go for the alpha with Doom Reavers (or almost any infantry, tbh) and it doesn't win you the game, it's lost you the game. Strakhov has no support after that point, and he's probably reasonably far up the board. (Side note; I used to really like it with IFP in Mk2 where they could do a monster charge and reposition to engage things 21" away in Shield Wall.) Vlad2 does it better because the Doomies he feats on are a pain to remove in the following turn, he has better general support, and he can hang further back. I've never been a fan of alpha-style play, tbh. I'd rather keep Strakhov's feat for the assassination threat, as I often do with S1. Nothing like hovering your hand over a big red button labelled 'KILL' to mess with your opponents' positioning! It's not like Hark never gets the alpha, either. A lot of it can come down to positioning from the turn before, and being able to run jacks 12" with Hark rather than 8" with Strakhov can help to put the pressure on your opponent.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jul 11, 2019 9:52:38 GMT
Who do you see putting Sentry and Occultation on? Yeah that's a tricky one. Strakhov is likely to have Occultation, though depending on the threats he could have Sentry. If Sentry isn't on him it's kinda wasted in the current list, but not sure there's much I can do about that. Superiority will start on a marauder most likely and then be switched to Ruin/spriggan once the marauder has run turn 1. If I swap to a destroyer, Sentry will go there. More I think about it the more I like the destroyer option, though I need to check other available options (could go grolar instead for example). Cheers, Dave
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 11, 2019 11:21:11 GMT
It's not like Hark never gets the alpha, either. A lot of it can come down to positioning from the turn before, and being able to run jacks 12" with Hark rather than 8" with Strakhov can help to put the pressure on your opponent. Abilities that improve the speed of our jacks have an outsized effect on their performance. That’s a reason I always like bringing reliable RTW triggers for Karchev. Assuming New Jaws stays “as is” and WGK loses Advance Move but gains some benefit that primarily helps troops, I wonder if we’re not still better off playing Hark in one of those two themes - probably WGI for the Sac Pawn and easy access to Knockdown effects - simply to have access to Sorscha 0. I’m finding a significant competitive edge on the table with Sorscha 0 in play with casters who are already bringing movement shenanigans. Now, granted, my playtest is limited to Karchev, Vlad 1, and Butcher 3 but the principal is the same with Hark. Darn it, but Hark needs Fortune back on his card.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 11, 2019 11:43:47 GMT
Darn it, but Hark needs Fortune back on his card. I miss Fortune.
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Post by auraco on Jul 11, 2019 11:46:28 GMT
It's not like Hark never gets the alpha, either. A lot of it can come down to positioning from the turn before, and being able to run jacks 12" with Hark rather than 8" with Strakhov can help to put the pressure on your opponent. Abilities that improve the speed of our jacks have an outsized effect on their performance. That’s a reason I always like bringing reliable RTW triggers for Karchev. Assuming New Jaws stays “as is” and WGK loses Advance Move but gains some benefit that primarily helps troops, I wonder if we’re not still better off playing Hark in one of those two themes - probably WGI for the Sac Pawn and easy access to Knockdown effects - simply to have access to Sorscha 0. I’m finding a significant competitive edge on the table with Sorscha 0 in play with casters who are already bringing movement shenanigans. Now, granted, my playtest is limited to Karchev, Vlad 1, and Butcher 3 but the principal is the same with Hark. Darn it, but Hark needs Fortune back on his card. I'd say Hark needs escort back, not fortune, this way he doesn't have to use half his stack and need to activate first to do his thing. Currently he's basically a mobility bot and a feat, the thing is, 10'' threat range is not that great, so you're relying on the feat to deliver your army, but a cagey opponent might leave his important stuff out of your jacks's threat range on your feat turn. We have a couple of caster that could use a rework to their kit, and I think Harkevich is one of them.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 11, 2019 11:53:18 GMT
It's not like Hark never gets the alpha, either. A lot of it can come down to positioning from the turn before, and being able to run jacks 12" with Hark rather than 8" with Strakhov can help to put the pressure on your opponent. Abilities that improve the speed of our jacks have an outsized effect on their performance. That’s a reason I always like bringing reliable RTW triggers for Karchev. Assuming New Jaws stays “as is” and WGK loses Advance Move but gains some benefit that primarily helps troops, I wonder if we’re not still better off playing Hark in one of those two themes - probably WGI for the Sac Pawn and easy access to Knockdown effects - simply to have access to Sorscha 0. I can't see it, personally. But again, this is just me not giving two hoots about the alpha. I can see S0 being more useful with Karchev and B3, though, as she also enhances their personal threat.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 11, 2019 13:51:24 GMT
I wonder if any casters will get a rework in the dynamic update. Sorscha 2, Hark, and Butcher 2 need it.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 11, 2019 15:37:49 GMT
As a matter of personal preference, the question this list is asking me is, “why aren’t you running Strakhov instead.” I would rather scream forward with a horde of doomreavers and jacks, and get the alpha, rather than take Harkevich with a plan of taking it on the chin. I think I like the idea of Harkevich better as a neat trick in WG after the changes, where you can load up on rockets, field guns, a gun carriage and destroyers and use your Broadsides to shoot all of the knocked down things. (OK still probably a trap). Yeah after a think and a couple lists I think I prefer Strakhov1 over Harkevich in Wolves. Each has different strengths I guess. Here's what I'm thinking right now: Wolves of WinterStrakhov1 +28 -Juggernaut -13 -Marauder -11 -Marauder -11 -Marauder -11 -Ruin / Spriggan -17 (can't decide) Butcher4 -0(?) Fenris -8 Greylord Forge Seer -4 Koldun Lord -4 Koldun Lord -4 Doom Reaver Swordsmen -10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen -10 Greylord Ternion -0(7) Greylord Ternion -0(7) 5 solid heavies, 2 combat solos and 2 weaponmaster units for the feat. DEF and ARM debuffs plus recursion from the support. Mix of solos for near/far flags who all support the rest of the list in various ways. 3 sources of empower as well. Pretty happy with the look of it! Obviously you loose a ranged jack for Overrun triggers. A marauder could become a destroyer through dropping a reaver unit. Then the 7pts remaining probably become a greylord escort and a 4pt solo of some sort. Cheers, Dave Boy I am looking at those 33 points of Mauraders and thinking that it works find with a Destroyer (14), a second Jugger (13) and then you have 6 points to play with. I think I also lose (sad face) Butcher 4. I want the adjunct for guidance so I can start the overrun chain on a destoyer/strakov gun shot. Surprising NO ONE - with the remaining 6 points I am grabbing the murder girsl ;-)
You are going to be less good into huge base but will hit with Ruin and 2 juggers like a truck.
I don't like escorts in this list - you have access to pathfinder on the feat and lets be honest - this list isn't really built for long attrition where the no tough/healing would be useful.
If you don't like murder girls then perhaps the Tinker for flag duty (and to heal up any unexpected system loses) and then pay for the adjunct and get a 3 unit of ternions.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jul 12, 2019 7:40:09 GMT
Yeah after a think and a couple lists I think I prefer Strakhov1 over Harkevich in Wolves. Each has different strengths I guess. Here's what I'm thinking right now: Wolves of WinterStrakhov1 +28 -Juggernaut -13 -Marauder -11 -Marauder -11 -Marauder -11 -Ruin / Spriggan -17 (can't decide) Butcher4 -0(?) Fenris -8 Greylord Forge Seer -4 Koldun Lord -4 Koldun Lord -4 Doom Reaver Swordsmen -10 Doom Reaver Swordsmen -10 Greylord Ternion -0(7) Greylord Ternion -0(7) 5 solid heavies, 2 combat solos and 2 weaponmaster units for the feat. DEF and ARM debuffs plus recursion from the support. Mix of solos for near/far flags who all support the rest of the list in various ways. 3 sources of empower as well. Pretty happy with the look of it! Obviously you loose a ranged jack for Overrun triggers. A marauder could become a destroyer through dropping a reaver unit. Then the 7pts remaining probably become a greylord escort and a 4pt solo of some sort. Cheers, Dave Boy I am looking at those 33 points of Mauraders and thinking that it works find with a Destroyer (14), a second Jugger (13) and then you have 6 points to play with. I think I also lose (sad face) Butcher 4. I want the adjunct for guidance so I can start the overrun chain on a destoyer/strakov gun shot. Surprising NO ONE - with the remaining 6 points I am grabbing the murder girsl ;-)
You are going to be less good into huge base but will hit with Ruin and 2 juggers like a truck. I don't like escorts in this list - you have access to pathfinder on the feat and lets be honest - this list isn't really built for long attrition where the no tough/healing would be useful.
If you don't like murder girls then perhaps the Tinker for flag duty (and to heal up any unexpected system loses) and then pay for the adjunct and get a 3 unit of ternions.
Thanks for the thoughts! I had a play around with the list and came up with something I like a lot more: Wolves of Winter Strakhov1 +28 Occultation-Grelord Adjunct -4 -Conquest -35 Sentry-Juggernaut -13 Superiority-Juggernaut -13 -Ruin / Spriggan -17 Butcher4 -0(?) Greylord Forge Seer -0(4) Koldun Lord -4 Koldun Lord -4 Doom Reaver Swordsmen -10 -Greylord Escort / Mechaniks (Min) -3 Greylord Ternion -0(7) Has (probably) Ruin, plus two juggernauts, but now has a colossal too. I prefer the conquest as a more reliable Overrun trigger personally. Kept Butcher4 because Fenris was gone and I like having an agressive solo nowadays. Still the same Empower support, though a few less Ice Cages and less reavers. But overall I like it! Cheers, Dave
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Post by Kriegsspiele on Jul 12, 2019 9:54:48 GMT
Since S0 is out: What's wrong with the good old Cloud Wall ... and a freakingly fast Behemoth with magical attacks and Eyeless Sight on a stick?
Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Behemoth - PC: 25 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 7 Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 12, 2019 11:00:26 GMT
Personally I moved away from the triple Kodiak because whilst it gets you there, it's pretty bad at actually beating things up once the lines meet. You've basically got one turn to make it count with Hark, and the Kodiaks just don't do enough damage without buffs. Also, cloud walls are not the great defence they once were; all of Hordes, plus CG and Khador, have ubiquitous access to Guidance. Cygnar has a reasonable amount of True Sight.
The Behemoth thing seems like an all-or-nothing play. You have 61 points of P16 jacks on a caster with no way of increasing damage, and a 10-point tax-jack on S0. Your entire threat is concentrated in the Behemoth. If your opponent can land a bit of damage on him, or a control effect, you've pretty much lost your ability to deal with heavies.
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Post by auraco on Jul 12, 2019 11:42:50 GMT
Since S0 is out: What's wrong with the good old Cloud Wall ... and a freakingly fast Behemoth with magical attacks and Eyeless Sight on a stick? Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Behemoth - PC: 25 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 7 Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army I’ll tell you what’s wrong with it! It doesn’t use any of the new Oblivion toys. The original reason to revisit Hark to try to make it work is the new toys and theme to try to fix his issues, mainly the lack of damage buff, something wolves does and will do even better once the void archon is out.
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