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Post by mydnight on Jul 10, 2019 23:49:37 GMT
Which is? 18pts is probably fine. But if other jacks also get cheaper around it, then its probably still overcosted in context. Let's see, eye of menoth is still useless, it can still get disrupted, it still has RNG focus, It still needs 2 vassal baby sitting it 24/7 (Basically making it cost 24 points), it is still separate from the battle group so our jack buffs don't work on it, infantry casters don't want it since it take points away from troops they need, our other character jacks out preform it in almost every way, the crusader, templar, and Sanctifier can out perform it, and they can get out jack buffs. As well it is a glorified beatstick that is 2 point less then taking 2 crusaders which will do the job better. Calling your list 'core issues' is basically asking PP to give you an autoinclude jack. Two vassals adding to its cost is fallacious logic. By that logic the vassal is always adding to the cost of SOME jack when you bring it. I'm sad that Menoths Gaze will not get tweaked but the Avatar is still our hardest hitting longest range survivable heavy. Hand of Vengeance in FM on the avatar will potentially bring it up to one-round wrecking of collosals with no focus investment from a caster, and it has the range to threathen that. And on't even get me started with the dif between Mat8 and 6. The templar is IMO overpriced and the vanquisher and reckoner need more help than an 18 pt avatar.
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Post by paradox on Jul 11, 2019 0:30:38 GMT
Which is? 18pts is probably fine. But if other jacks also get cheaper around it, then its probably still overcosted in context. Let's see, eye of menoth is still useless, it can still get disrupted, it still has RNG focus, It still needs 2 vassal baby sitting it 24/7 (Basically making it cost 24 points), it is still separate from the battle group so our jack buffs don't work on it, infantry casters don't want it since it take points away from troops they need, our other character jacks out preform it in almost every way, the crusader, templar, and Sanctifier can out perform it, and they can get out jack buffs. As well it is a glorified beatstick that is 2 point less then taking 2 crusaders which will do the job better. Gaze is not useless, just requires alot of skill/practice. Disruption, well, its a thing. It doesnt require two vassals. I use none with mine most of the time. It fits in lists even better now, and theme changes also help this. Two crusaders are not remotely like the Avatar. I auto-include it with Feora1 in CM. Avatar is good, just a touch pricey. Im concerned other changes that help us end up making this still true.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 11, 2019 1:40:11 GMT
I still feel that the Flameguard aren't quite rounded out yet. I'm really not sure what they need, but they need something. Maybe they need more solos in the same way that Exemplar have their seneschals, or an elite, hard-hitting unit. They could use some inter-theme synergy. Right now, the theme is comprised of four units that vary from ish to great. Only two units have CAs (Cleansers, TFG) and of that, I'd argue that only the Cleanser CA adds value to the base unit. There aren't a ton of solos allowed and of those only one actually affects any other unit (Pyrrhus). The rest are Nicia, Vassals, and Reclaimers plus Hand. Vassals are straight jack support in a theme that does nothing for jacks. Reclaimers just don't seem to have a place in any army. Hand is legit good, though again he Veers more towards combat solo and jack support. Add on the fact that the theme benefits narrowly target two units only, making you feel like you are missing out if you don't take them, and the problem is apparent. Nothing really works synergistically. Variety is possible, but it's done better and easier in other themes. Example: CM has several Journeymen casters and solos that add value to the list. EI has solid solos that contribute to the army's performance, along with a theme that doesn't leave jacks out in the cold. And FM has excellent solos that pose real challenges to other armies, and also encourages diverse list building with Hand of Vengeance. Guardians right now just doesn't do anything we can't get elsewhere--and get better elsewhere.
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Post by dragonstitch on Jul 11, 2019 6:27:23 GMT
Let's see, eye of menoth is still useless, it can still get disrupted, it still has RNG focus, It still needs 2 vassal baby sitting it 24/7 (Basically making it cost 24 points), it is still separate from the battle group so our jack buffs don't work on it, infantry casters don't want it since it take points away from troops they need, our other character jacks out preform it in almost every way, the crusader, templar, and Sanctifier can out perform it, and they can get out jack buffs. As well it is a glorified beatstick that is 2 point less then taking 2 crusaders which will do the job better. Gaze is not useless, just requires alot of skill/practice. Disruption, well, its a thing. It doesnt require two vassals. I use none with mine most of the time. It fits in lists even better now, and theme changes also help this. Two crusaders are not remotely like the Avatar. I auto-include it with Feora1 in CM. Avatar is good, just a touch pricey. Im concerned other changes that help us end up making this still true. Gaze is in fact worthless as it can still be easily be gotten around just like in MK2. It is a thing that should not affect the avatar in the first place since Disruption is meant to be messing with a jack's cortex which the avatar does not have. It does require 2 vassals do to it's RNG focus which unreliable, and to get rid of disruption. and so are the other characters which have all the benefits of being in the battlegroup on top of bonds. and yes 2 crusaders are remotely like the Avatar. They each have the same health, each have close to it's damage output and get even higher with jack buffs. As well without gaze the avatar is just a beatstick just like the crusader.
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Post by dragonstitch on Jul 11, 2019 7:02:11 GMT
Let's see, eye of menoth is still useless, it can still get disrupted, it still has RNG focus, It still needs 2 vassal baby sitting it 24/7 (Basically making it cost 24 points), it is still separate from the battle group so our jack buffs don't work on it, infantry casters don't want it since it take points away from troops they need, our other character jacks out preform it in almost every way, the crusader, templar, and Sanctifier can out perform it, and they can get out jack buffs. As well it is a glorified beatstick that is 2 point less then taking 2 crusaders which will do the job better. Calling your list 'core issues' is basically asking PP to give you an autoinclude jack. Two vassals adding to its cost is fallacious logic. By that logic the vassal is always adding to the cost of SOME jack when you bring it. I'm sad that Menoths Gaze will not get tweaked but the Avatar is still our hardest hitting longest range survivable heavy. Hand of Vengeance in FM on the avatar will potentially bring it up to one-round wrecking of collosals with no focus investment from a caster, and it has the range to threathen that. And on't even get me started with the dif between Mat8 and 6. The templar is IMO overpriced and the vanquisher and reckoner need more help than an 18 pt avatar. I'm not asking for an autoinclude I just want it fixed. it should not be something that is reliant on RNG to work properly when it not in the battle group, and take up points that can go to troops and solos As well the Hand of Vengeance in FM thing does not hold up since the crusader and the Templar can also do that, on top of jack buffs to make then even better at it. Also it being the hardest hitting longest range survivable heavy is not right. Seeing as Eye of truth has the same arm, same threat, and can does close to the avatar's damage, on top of handing out a buff to troops and can get buffs itself. Fire of Salvation also close to the avatar in almost every way and is 4 points cheaper. Though really if they did not want it to be one of our strongest jack then they should not have made it one of the strongest jacks in the setting.
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Post by onijet01 on Jul 11, 2019 13:48:35 GMT
Which is? 18pts is probably fine. But if other jacks also get cheaper around it, then its probably still overcosted in context. Let's see, eye of menoth is still useless, it can still get disrupted, it still has RNG focus, It still needs 2 vassal baby sitting it 24/7 (Basically making it cost 24 points), it is still separate from the battle group so our jack buffs don't work on it, infantry casters don't want it since it take points away from troops they need, our other character jacks out preform it in almost every way, the crusader, templar, and Sanctifier can out perform it, and they can get out jack buffs. As well it is a glorified beatstick that is 2 point less then taking 2 crusaders which will do the job better. Yet a tired old ploy. Meanoth so sick of these arguments as they just show how little players understand the game as a whole. First not being in a battle group is not all bad as it allows you to use the avatar as a zone/flag contesting model. In the oblivion update you will find scenarios where "keeping Jack's in control" lose you the game. As the new scenarios punish Jack casters. Avatar is a solo warjack and can be very tanky. The fact he does not need any buff to kill vs crusaders(your comparison)speaks wonders for him. Can't all Jack's be disrupted.. humm. Seems a stupid point there. Or still sore for the small debuff from mkii? The game is shifting to mixed arms and heavy infantry again (called that crap) and gaze inhinders and controls infantry and and it's a large bubble to boot. Infantry casters can make great use of him as a heavy because they are always focus starved. Battle group heavy casters have to take suck a large boat of support that they could use a single Jack to operate outside control. It out performs the Jack's you mentioned all the time. It's got more arm, mat, and damage than the above listed, and if you try to say choir it can gain those buffs to. Now battle group caster is a subjective term. But let's look at Durst 1. You lose bulwark. Wow such a loss as you have to clump up that's effective. But can still use decelaeration, hallOwed avenger, boundless charge. So no lose to his good kit spells there. But you lose his +4 armor feat that forces models b2b. Let's look at a subjective infantry caster. High reclaimed. Losses out on his sacrificial lamb spell bit can abuse his hand of fate. (But colossal use it better) Even the new exemplar caster (infantry) can make great use of avatar for positive and can take advantage of her inviable resolve to jump to arm 23 at no focus load from her. Feat turn it still gains the effects of her feat and avatar is built in opponent spell immune. The only problem with the avatar currently is the theme force game, but oblivion is changing that. If the Avitar does not fit a player's playstyle that's on the player bit it's a damn good piece. Kross 1 loves him an avitar buddy
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Jul 11, 2019 14:53:47 GMT
In MkII, I ran a Reznik2 list that was fast and aggressive and similar to the MkIII Flameguard theme and Avatar has a good home with him. While it isn't allowed in the FG theme now, Gaze and Enliven were really good control, especially for something like Molik Karn. The Enliven nerf makes it a little more difficult, but it's still very likely negating Molik's side steps at the cost of Avatar.
It'll probably be alright in Faithful Masses with the big guy once the theme remix happens. MAT 10/POW 23 Blessed+Magical weapons on a free charge threat 12" is pretty excessive, but you'll kill just about anything you want.
With Requisition Points, he's going to fit in a lot of places because he doesn't cost a solo/CA slot.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 11, 2019 16:30:54 GMT
It is certainly not a fact that Gaze is worthless. Actually, it's pretty good. But you have to apply it right (read: don't Gaze Ghetorix, ends badly). You do not need two Vassals to power up the Avatar. Hell, Hand of Silence can now do that with two souls. And I don't hate that. Also, Disruption is a red herring: I have been Disrupted exactly once in Mk. III, and it was ancillary because a Storm Strider was finishing off a heavy anyway. With our preponderance of Shield Guards, Eiryss1 may as well not exist. What else is Disrupting you? Serious question, as I see Disruption bandied about as a thing we need to worry about, yet I have seen nobody really taking it. The battlegroup thing is also somewhat disingenuous. You mention "jack buffs" but don't talk about what those are when comparing the Crusader and the Templar to the Avatar. So I went to look at what "jack buffs" might be, i.e., battlegroup-only buffs that benefit other 'jacks but not the Avatar. Warning, list ahead. - Amon: Mobility, Synergy, Feat. Don't take the Avatar with Amon?
- Cyrenia: None. Avatar is probably good with her (Gaze + Rock Wall = pita)
- Durant2: Manifest Destiny, Feat. Hasn't seen the table in Mk. III. An 8 point Avatar would not make this guy see play.
- Durst: Bulwark, Feat. However, Hallowed Avenger and Deceleration DO work on the Avatar, which is pretty damn good. I actually like him with Durst.
- Feora1: None. Appreciates the Avatar.
- Feora2: Escort, Firestarter. Arguably the worst Warcaster in the Faction and in the running for the game. Does not see play.
- Feora3: Redline. Also does not see much play. Avatar benefits from Incite though, which is more her schtick than Redline.
- Harby: None. Appreciates the Avatar (more Focus to heal with, my pretty)
- High Reclaimer: Sacrificial Lamb (with Power Up, have yet to cast this in Mk. III across over 150 games with HR).
- Testament: None.
- Kreoss1: None.
- Kreoss2: Battle-Charged. If that's a big portion of your game plan, don't take the Avatar with Kreoss2?
- Kreoss3: None. Assail works out of BG and the Avatar appreciates it greatly.
- Malekus: Open Fire. Malekus is rarely played and Open Fire favors ranged over melee anyway.
- Reznik1: Brand of Heresy, Perdition. Don't take the Avatar with Reznik1?
- Reznik2: Curse. However, that brings our MAT 6 warjacks up to MAT 8, parity with the Avatar. And the Avatar likes Boundless Charge while Reznik2 appreciates camping.
- Severius1: None, though I find he likes guns more anyway.
- Severius2: Oracular Vision, Awareness. Likes guns more anyway (preferably of the Colossal variety).
- Thyra: None. Appreciates the Avatar, actually.
- Vindictus: Admonition. But Vindy usually takes the smallest possible BG anyway, so the buff isn't the issue here.
So, from our list of 20 warcasters, we have two where I definitely would choose other melee heavies over the Avatar because of "jack buffs" (Amon, Kreoss2) two where I would still play the Avatar despite "jack buffs" (Durst, Reznik2), three where I would not pick any of the melee heavies despite "jack buffs" or whose buffs don't factor into their list building decisions (Reznik1, Severius2, Vindictus), four that have "jack buffs" and probably wouldn't take the Avatar, but are never played (Durant2, Feora2, Feora3, Malekus), and nine that do not discriminate on buffs (the rest of them). At best, you're looking at 9 out of 20 'casters whose buffs preclude the Avatar and that list is heavily populated with 'casters that never see table time. 55% of our casters still stand to gain from the Avatar. That's pretty damn good for a character 'jack. Sorry, but I don't think that argument holds up. I will agree with 'dox in that the Avatar is probably still too expensive, especially compared to where Fire of Salvation ended up. As far as core issues go, the only one I really see is that he's a pricey boy. You do get a hell of a lot for that package, though.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Jul 11, 2019 18:29:52 GMT
I love the Avatar in just about all of my faithful masses lists
However, Disruption/knockdown combo is a big threat. I have had games against Cygnar where the Avatar would get knocked down, making enliven useless, then get disrupted, next turn, rinse and repeat. Choir can't stop is since the guns are magical or can be made magical and typically my shield guards are protecting my caster and Sev(0)
Sure, not every faction can do this, but it can be pain when you encounter it
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Jul 11, 2019 18:49:22 GMT
I'll agree that the Avatar isn't the best thing ever into Cygnar (who honestly can just shoot him off the board), but a lot of other factions get pinched pretty good by him. Proper use in Cryx, for example, is very hard for them to deal with.
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Post by onijet01 on Jul 12, 2019 0:59:49 GMT
I love the Avatar in just about all of my faithful masses lists However, Disruption/knockdown combo is a big threat. I have had games against Cygnar where the Avatar would get knocked down, making enliven useless, then get disrupted, next turn, rinse and repeat. Choir can't stop is since the guns are magical or can be made magical and typically my shield guards are protecting my caster and Sev(0) Sure, not every faction can do this, but it can be pain when you encounter it That's tough, try taking a Vigilant with the avitar. Yah its 9 points for a warm 21light. But it does grant cover to models near it. Good for both casters and avitar (making him defensive 14)
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Post by greytemplar on Jul 13, 2019 2:02:31 GMT
The Avatar dropping by 2 points helps, but its the lazy fix and frankly probably not quite enough. The correct move would have been to keep him 20 and make him worth 20. He still has his main problem in Mk3. Being an expensive model that has some skornergy just because of how the game's basic mechanics function. His main schtick was always that he was a jack that generated his own focus. D3+1. However, since ALL jacks generate 1 focus for free his main benefit is less than it seems at first glance. Because of him generating free focus, he is(on paper) a good choice for a warcaster who doesn't want a lot of jacks/wants jacks that run themselves. However, most casters that fit that criteria are infantry focused warcasters. They want a lot of infantry to buff. But you can't have as much of those infantry if you've sunk nearly 1/3 of your points into the Avatar. So infantry casters who would want minimal jacks don't want the Avatar. But Warjack focused casters don't want the Avatar either. Unlike Mk2, in Mk3 we have quite a few more casters with jack buffs that are battlegroup specific. Durst, Feora3, and Amon specifically come to mind. Its not that he was bad of course. Its just that he was always the runner up choice in every situation you might want to take him. The Avatar is the guy that is always winning Silver a the Warmachine Olympics. He's not bad at what he does, he's just never the best choice.
IMO, he needed a little more focus efficiency to really bring him over that hump. Either change his focus to D3+2 OR give him the ability to run and charge for free. And immunity to disruption for flavor purposes. He just doesn't feel like the Avatar anymore. He's literally remote controlled by god, he should at least act like it somewhat.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Jul 19, 2019 20:49:05 GMT
Thanks to Szymon Ratka a from Qualigeeks. qualigeeks.eu/FaithfulMasses_July_2019Summary of all changes in FM: - Menite Archon Solos were added, - 2 Vassals of Menoth as free option - 2 Reclaimers Gatekeepers as free option - Free Wall was removed from theme's benefits - Mercenary unit can't include ranking officers (No attendent priest)
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Post by mydnight on Jul 19, 2019 22:06:03 GMT
Thanks to Szymon Ratka a from Qualigeeks. qualigeeks.eu/FaithfulMasses_July_2019Summary of all changes in FM: - Menite Archon Solos were added, - 2 Vassals of Menoth as free option - 2 Reclaimers Gatekeepers as free option - Free Wall was removed from theme's benefits - Mercenary unit can't include ranking officers (No attendent priest) Slight inaccuracy. Mercenary units can always include ranking officers (I suspect its a generic rule). Theme forces however specifically call out whether you can include non-ranking-officer attachments. Also you can no longer take sunburst for free. Can be seen here www.reddit.com/r/Warmachine/comments/cfcovm/the_faithful_masses_oblivion/
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Post by dragonstitch on Jul 20, 2019 14:50:07 GMT
I love the Avatar in just about all of my faithful masses lists However, Disruption/knockdown combo is a big threat. I have had games against Cygnar where the Avatar would get knocked down, making enliven useless, then get disrupted, next turn, rinse and repeat. Choir can't stop is since the guns are magical or can be made magical and typically my shield guards are protecting my caster and Sev(0) Sure, not every faction can do this, but it can be pain when you encounter it That's tough, try taking a Vigilant with the avitar. Yah its 9 points for a warm 21light. But it does grant cover to models near it. Good for both casters and avitar (making him defensive 14) Yes go ahead take another 9 points on top of the 6-7 extra he already needs to function properly. Since you know one of the strongest warjack to ever exist in lore needs more babysitting to be worth taking on the table.
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