Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 4, 2019 17:26:25 GMT
Autocorrecthaslimits I think you were missing the point. When you want to balance a game but don't want to touch áll models, you should attempt to bring all the models you dó tweak to the middle of the pack, not try to repopulate and slightly move up the top of the powercurve almost every single time. That is not how you stay in business though. New releases have to be compelling enough to warrant new purchases, otherwise you get the Mk2 phenomenon where Cryx didn't get anything compelling in the entire run of the Edition and Banes ruled until the end. An engineered controlled power escalation is healthy, fun, and exciting. But it always has to climax in an edition change and a power reset. PP is not in the business of selling Chess Pieces that you buy once and never have to worry about not buying anything again because "the end result would be similar to what I already have".
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Jul 4, 2019 21:28:48 GMT
Ok I kinda get that, fair, but I do wonder. How many players don't get several factions over the years? Variety and cool models are allways a reason to buy new stuff for the vast majority of players.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on Jul 5, 2019 18:28:05 GMT
CID and card-free dynamic updates obliterates the need for a full-blown MK IV. Expect incremental updates in perpetuity. precisely! I think there is still plenty of scope for existing themes to be fleshed out. I mean, for chrissakes, there are still no Nyarr models (mentioned in Legions of Dawn) (caster fluff excluded). NONE! warmachineuniversity.com/mw/index.php/Vyros,_Incissar_of_the_Dawnguard
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juckto
Junior Strategist
Posts: 124
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Post by juckto on Jul 5, 2019 20:17:57 GMT
I said; "Caster fluff excluded"
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jul 6, 2019 3:48:33 GMT
My apologies if the post was interpreted as a "Privateer Press is circling the drain" post. Without trying to be a shill, I have always had the utmost confidence in Privateer Press' ability to do the right thing - until the unit rules that came out for Mk3. They were rather disappointing (grand understatement) which have rather shaken my confidence.
I talked to the owner of my LGS today, and he made an excellent point (with my analysis thrown in also) - Back when PP could do no wrong, it was against the backdrop of GW screwing up every thing they could potentially screw up. Now that GW has a new CEO & is firing on all cylinders, and MtG has become an established constant in game stores, any screw-up by PP becomes magnified.
The Dev Chat where they talked about Storm Division and Jaws of the Wolf also mentioned that there are *a lot* more changes coming. They down-played them and said that they are minor and should not be any surprise to anyone. What is more surprising is that they seem to feel like they have learned everything that they need to do from discussions and previous CID that they are going to pull the trigger on a lot of legacy model changes without CID'ing them. Combined with the simplification of the themes and their rules, I think they are slashing a lot of their future development and CID workload down to post-Oblivion material. Unless there is a great outcry about something, or a future item requires it, I think that they are pretty much done updating legacy units when Oblivion comes out.
They hinted that Convergence is going to get some more stuff after all of the Oblivion stuff is released, which is going to have a long release schedule. I anticipate that after the fold-in of Riot Quest miniatures and the release of Oblivion-related Convergence additions you will probably only see a trickle of Warmahordes stuff to flesh out themes and a big push of Neo Mechanica and other stuff.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 8, 2019 6:39:31 GMT
The Dev Chat where they talked about Storm Division and Jaws of the Wolf also mentioned that there are *a lot* more changes coming. They down-played them and said that they are minor and should not be any surprise to anyone. What is more surprising is that they seem to feel like they have learned everything that they need to do from discussions and previous CID that they are going to pull the trigger on a lot of legacy model changes without CID'ing them. Combined with the simplification of the themes and their rules, I think they are slashing a lot of their future development and CID workload down to post-Oblivion material. Unless there is a great outcry about something, or a future item requires it, I think that they are pretty much done updating legacy units when Oblivion comes out. - I think you misinterpret. They mostly said that the nerfs would be unsurprising and didn't really say anything about what exactly would happen to Storm Division. If they give us all the info at once, then there's not much to speculate and hype about. This is marketing.
- Shouldn't they have learned from all the CIDs so far? If we wait for them to pull literally every model that still "needs" it through CID, then we are going to wait a very long time. Not to mention that they have a release schedule to adhere to and if the models in question are not related to any new ones, then they will never get a pass. For instance, the Kraken ties in with Black Fleet, but that CID was just before they decided that Colossals might need another look at. By your reasoning, the Kraken would never get fixed. They probably learned a lot during all the CIDs about where they want the general power level of the game to be, and I for one, think it's good that they apply their knowledge all in one go, instead of waiting for years. That doesn't mean that those models can't get another CID, especially if they are too good/bad.
- They are the game developers after all, it would be good to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they hadn't learned anything after all this time, we would also be saying how bad they are. Is there really no way they can do the right thing? Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
Personally, I trust in their ability to make a large swathe of models playable and exciting again, without having to wait for years until everybody gets what they want. Will everything be the best it can be? Probably not, but the insistence on being the very best is what has produced such things as Lord of the Feast, and then people complain about power creep. I'll be happy if I can just play with my toys, and I'm really excited that they're getting any changes at all really. Even if it doesn't pan out, it would be wise to wait with the complaining until we have all the info rather than ranting based on spoilers (not you specifically, there's plenty of that going on right now)
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Post by netdragon on Jul 8, 2019 9:58:40 GMT
What dirtyharrypotter is saying is pretty much correct. The so-called "balance" has been a joke (at least for me) in WM/H for a long time. The game might be fun and enjoyable, but the mechanics themselves don't - at the moment - serve balance. There is NOTHING to make weak models (or even lists) even borderline useful, unlike with some other non-GW systems. Rock/paper/scissors is in its own way somehow balanced, but only within the metagame. Not inside the actual game itself. This has bothered me with WM/H longer than I can remember; you CAN'T determine skill level (if both players are decent) based on one game. Over the course of 10 or even 100 games better players win most of the time, but single games can be very bad experiences whether your winning or losing.. even boring. I'm still sitting on my Cryx army and unwilling to touch the game anymore unless they do something about this. I'm very hopeful the new theme rules can alleviate this.
The problem is the Rock/Paper/Scissors. Other wargames are incluing list-building as part of the match, which helps a lot with the R/P/S problem.
Games like guild ball or Malifaux have unit selection AFTER mission objectives and enemy faction are determined. WM/H have this with specialists, but with the old Theme list format it was nearly impossiuble to use; now with the new format I think it could be more viable.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 8, 2019 17:35:43 GMT
No new edition is a good news actually, provided the game have regular updates and fix for problematic issues. Also no new edition was actually an advantage of picking Warmachine&Hordes for years, rather than a flaw.
Shake the individual stats and ability on every single models regulary is a disaster consider that this is a miniature game - so keep on the current build and don't making a complete overhaul makes the game stable and also keep your miniature's value. Since it is not the computer game that is able to choose what you want in a minute, and need to pay for the models AND also fully paint it in order to make use of it on the real games, your devotion to the every single model must not be betrayed so easily. That's why making a new edition is no more than a disaster(even if it need to be), and no new edition is the best choice.
I don't go so far that the change is not needed at all, and some changes affects the others, but at least we need some changes regulary, and we don't need to make something obsolete meanwhile as well.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 8, 2019 20:48:31 GMT
PP's problem is and will be marketing. They don't have it.
Lets JUST look at ONE instance. They let a typo go through on shield guard when Hugerford goes on likely the biggest pod-cast and one of the most important retailers. Now Chain Attack is all in on WM/H so no DIRECT foul but it erodes brand. Companies with a marketing function do NOT do that.
Now they do seem to have some of the Comm side of the house done. Their graphics are pretty solid and I think their packaging is better than a lot of stuff (looking at YOU WotC) but their marketing at both a tactical and strategic level just makes me CRINGE. Consumer good is not my area of expertise but some of this is common across the discipline.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 9, 2019 2:58:22 GMT
PP's problem is and will be marketing. They don't have it. Lets JUST look at ONE instance. They let a typo go through on shield guard when Hugerford goes on likely the biggest pod-cast and one of the most important retailers. Now Chain Attack is all in on WM/H so no DIRECT foul but it erodes brand. Companies with a marketing function do NOT do that. Now they do seem to have some of the Comm side of the house done. Their graphics are pretty solid and I think their packaging is better than a lot of stuff (looking at YOU WotC) but their marketing at both a tactical and strategic level just makes me CRINGE. Consumer good is not my area of expertise but some of this is common across the discipline. Starting to 'free rider' lies, their policy is just sucks. Talking on here would be included on the list of their folly as well. You know, the very existence of lormahordes already prove how sucks they are recently.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on Jul 9, 2019 3:17:11 GMT
No new edition is a good news actually, provided the game have regular updates and fix for problematic issues. Also no new edition was actually an advantage of picking Warmachine&Hordes for years, rather than a flaw. Shake the individual stats and ability on every single models regulary is a disaster consider that this is a miniature game - so keep on the current build and don't making a complete overhaul makes the game stable and also keep your miniature's value. Since it is not the computer game that is able to choose what you want in a minute, and need to pay for the models AND also fully paint it in order to make use of it on the real games, your devotion to the every single model must not be betrayed so easily. That's why making a new edition is no more than a disaster(even if it need to be), and no new edition is the best choice. I don't go so far that the change is not needed at all, and some changes affects the others, but at least we need some changes regulary, and we don't need to make something obsolete meanwhile as well. IKR!??! how dar2 they give us a stable game ! juckto Avatar Jul 5, 2019 15:17:57 GMT -5 juckto said: I said; "Caster fluff excluded" privateerpress.com/warmachine/welcome-to-warmachine/retribution-of-scyrah"the Dawnguard legions of House Nyarr," keep moving that goalpost
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 9, 2019 3:58:29 GMT
PP's problem is and will be marketing. They don't have it. No kidding! Just the initial way they tried to launch Mk3 as a totally beer and pretzel game that anybody can pick up was a big indication they had no idea what the game's real strengths and identity were. Your army your way, no page 5, the "First Shots" event. They were clearly trying to sell WM/H as something it isn't.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Jul 9, 2019 7:44:24 GMT
Companies with a marketing function do NOT do that. Do not do what? Let a typo go through? Do you really believe a marketing team would read rules? This is not a marketing problem, just a proofreading one.
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Post by mydnight on Jul 9, 2019 8:34:07 GMT
PP's problem is and will be marketing. They don't have it. No kidding! Just the initial way they tried to launch Mk3 as a totally beer and pretzel game that anybody can pick up was a big indication they had no idea what the game's real strengths and identity were. Your army your way, no page 5, the "First Shots" event. They were clearly trying to sell WM/H as something it isn't. Look at Riot Quest announcement lock and load 2018. They even recognise how horrible it was by jockingly referring to it at L&L2019.
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Post by Charistoph on Jul 9, 2019 8:43:59 GMT
Companies with a marketing function do NOT do that. Do not do what? Let a typo go through? Do you really believe a marketing team would read rules? This is not a marketing problem, just a proofreading one. And, oddly enough, one that GW have done on a near constant basis for decades, yet hasn't killed their games (other factors contributed to that).
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