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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 28, 2019 9:51:21 GMT
I agree, particularly of Battle Engines with self-boosting mechanisms. But there's no getting rid of them now, even if I do hold out hope for a "no huge base" format to eventually rise to prominence.
As for the Marshaling: the Forge Seer is an average Empower bot, but a very good marshal. The issue is that Marshaling is generally best on ranged jacks and we only have one worthy of consideration. I do really like the Forge Seer Destroyer combo though.
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Post by auraco on Jun 28, 2019 12:35:44 GMT
It's a problem with both jack marshalling and the forge seer itself. Marshalling in general is not very good, not even sure if it's seen in competitive tournament lists. And, well the forge seer is mostly an empower bot. Also, to have better results than a battlegroup caster with power up and empower you need two focus on a marshalled jack because just the marshall bonus + 1 focus from empower is often just worst than a jack having two focus, this means needing two forge seer to babysit the same jack for the double empower to actually get good mileage out of marshalling a jack, at this point it just becomes too expansive to be worth it in my opinion, you're paying (or using free card slots that could be more usefull somewhere else) 22 points for a single marshalled destroyer that can't use battlegroup points and that's a bit better than if it were in a battlegroup... Pretty much the only time I've ever found marshalling a jack to be worth it was in a 6 jack Strakhov1 list, because he can't actually handle all these 6 jacks by himself, but that list is from a long time ago and I'm not sure if it would still perform the way it did in the current meta that has evolved a lot since then.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 28, 2019 13:20:05 GMT
There's an Old Witch2 list I like with marshals. Since she can hand out free charges like candy, you combine that with Crush! and Empower to give you, in effect, a fully loaded jack with a damage boost for one focus. Niche, sure, but it exists.
I think themes are a part of why they don't see play; if you wanted to run Forge Seer marshals without cutting into your free points, you had to be running Jaws. And no-one really wanted to be running Jaws except casters like Karchev, who would rather keep the jacks in the Battlegroup.
And the final nail for marshals in general is the fact that every faction now has two junior warcasters that cost the same, are better in most ways, and are in the same themes as the marshals. So you need to be looking for something pretty specific, such as magic weapons and blessed on the Forge Seer. Oh, wait, we can get something similar from the Adjunct...
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Post by auraco on Jun 28, 2019 14:37:05 GMT
Thing is, even if you didn’t have to cut a free card, would you really marshall a jack in a wolves or armored corps list? Except for really niche case I think the answer is no. Marshalled jacks are too slow for wolves list and armored corps list don’t tend to want more jack, or at least out of battlegroup jack in case like Sorscha3 where she does want jack but field marshall flank is way too good to take an out of bg jack with her.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 28, 2019 18:40:03 GMT
Sigh. The Forgeseer is arguably one of the best jack marshals in the game: his drive provides two benefits, and he brings Empower. And yet... Is it just that jack marshals in general are very rarely worth taking, or is that Khador does not have the kind of jacks that are worth marshalling? I actually think it's the later. I love by Forge Seers with Behemoth, because that makes Behemoth a serious threat in any range and at any point in the game. Sadly, no other Jack can say the same. I guess what I'm saying is: We need Behemoth in more Themes
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Post by anderfreak on Jun 29, 2019 4:00:45 GMT
Give the MoW kovnik drive:boosted attack and damage rolls on ranged weapons.
Make those ranged jacks siiiiing!
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Post by michael on Jun 29, 2019 4:21:41 GMT
Give the MoW kovnik drive:boosted attack and damage rolls on ranged weapons. Make those ranged jacks siiiiing! We were literally told last year that the dev team did not care at all about the Kovnik’s JM ability, and it was essentially only there for fluff reasons, and we would never get any improvements on it.
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Post by anderfreak on Jun 29, 2019 5:22:59 GMT
Give the MoW kovnik drive:boosted attack and damage rolls on ranged weapons. Make those ranged jacks siiiiing! We were literally told last year that the dev team did not care at all about the Kovnik’s JM ability, and it was essentially only there for fluff reasons, and we would never get any improvements on it. I know. It was like %90 joke, %10 depressing.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 29, 2019 13:39:25 GMT
I am going to a SR today with the new scenarios. Will report back. While my Wolves list didn't change I specifically did some tech for the other list so I could go wide and more importantly (because that is our cross to bear) deal with Sleds and Derp Turtles which are the obvious choice for those 2 factions. The Fun Carriage is just a bit too pillowfisted comparatively - just frustrating because it would be perfect in this new world with just a bit more "umph" in its ability to take on heavies.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 30, 2019 5:54:15 GMT
Sigh. The Forgeseer is arguably one of the best jack marshals in the game: his drive provides two benefits, and he brings Empower. And yet... Is it just that jack marshals in general are very rarely worth taking, or is that Khador does not have the kind of jacks that are worth marshalling? I actually think it's the later. I love by Forge Seers with Behemoth, because that makes Behemoth a serious threat in any range and at any point in the game. Sadly, no other Jack can say the same. I guess what I'm saying is: We need Behemoth in more Themes imagine if WGK and JAWS got rolled together. What a shooting list thay would be! Behemoth, fun carriage, and rockets!
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Post by sand20go on Jun 30, 2019 15:08:17 GMT
I am going to a SR today with the new scenarios. Will report back. While my Wolves list didn't change I specifically did some tech for the other list so I could go wide and more importantly (because that is our cross to bear) deal with Sleds and Derp Turtles which are the obvious choice for those 2 factions. The Fun Carriage is just a bit too pillowfisted comparatively - just frustrating because it would be perfect in this new world with just a bit more "umph" in its ability to take on heavies. Played today. Didn't do great. Mostly pilot error..... 1) First game was against Infernals with the scenario with the 2 wide circle zones. Dropped Wolves. Main issue here is that Infernals running Horror heavy with Zaateroth is surprisingly effective removing doomreavers. And they just keep coming back. That is going to be a match up that is going to be difficult - because they may be the ultimate attrition army. Jaws probably will be the answer - I should know this but I BELIEVE that Horrors - even without souls - still count as living so that they can't charge butcher3 under feat??? 2) Second game as the one with three flags in the middle. VERY grindy game against Haby. I dropped, I think, the wrong list (Sorscha3) as I think the right play is Wolves and using the Spray ponies to just force a ton of Marterydom's. Lost on Clock. 3) Last up was the 2 wide squares. Played Sorscha 3 again into a new retribution player. Not a great test but Sent devestators over to do Devestator like things on the wide sides. Worked out fine. We really do have the best jacks in the world for that task - especially if you can on turn 1 get them 12 inches up and then forget about them. Unless they are teched Rain of death is pretty dam uber in that zone for clearing off chaff that wants to stop you from contesting. Opened up more that game then I have for a LONG time ;-) I could seem DEMOLISHERS doing the same thing - paying a bit more but having greater range that covers 12 inches (move and shoot) rather than 7.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 30, 2019 19:07:38 GMT
Played in a steamroller on Saturday. The rust is still coming off... These were my lists.
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Wolves of Winter
[Old Witch 2] Zevanna Agha, the Fate Keeper [+27]
- Juggernaut [13]
- Juggernaut [13]
- Rager [10]
- Greylord Adjunct [0(4)]
Koldun Lord [0(4)]
Koldun Lord [0(4)]
Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10]
- Greylord Escort [3]
Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10]
- Greylord Escort [3]
Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10]
Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10]
Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10]
Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10]
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Winter Guard Kommand
[Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30]
- Juggernaut [13]
- Juggernaut [13]
- Marauder [11]
- Marauder [11]
- Marauder [11]
- Marauder [11]
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4]
- Berserker [8]
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]
Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)]
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
First match was against PoM Kreoss 2 with Exemplars. I dropped the Old Witch. The scenario was Bunkers, which has the rectangle zone on your side and 3 flags in the middle. It turned out to be a surprisingly tense and grindy game with his tough no-knockdown spam vs. my tough spam, and me misplaying my 2 Escorts on turn 1 such that they were not useful turn 2. Purely player positioning error on my part. Anyway, we went 4 rounds with me going down on attrition but ultimately winning on scenario.
I had one somewhat low probability assassination attempt which came at little risk where I was able to Curse of Shadows the Exemplars who were blocking the way to his caster, and thus able to land two doomreavers on Kreoss early in the game. He was able to burn focus to mitigate the damage, but had to play Kreoss a bit tentatively the next 2 turns.
Wolves main win condition continues to be scenario. I went up early. With 3 flags in the middle of the board, I was very glad to have 2 Koldun Lords and the Adjunct, but felt like it would have been very helpful to have Alexia in the list.
Also, I really, truly liked having 36 doomreavers on the table and felt like I could be much more aggressive throughout the game. Even after a somewhat nasty Kreoss feat turn, I was able to grind out the win. I will not consider - just simply not consider - going below 30 doomreavers ever.
Second game was Anarchy - 2 wide circles with each side having a flag and objective. I dropped Karchev into Kreuger 2 Tharnpalooza. This is the first time I've played Tharn, or Kreuger 2, so lessons were learned.
In retrospect, I felt like I might have been better off trying to squeeze two min units of Winterguard into the list, with one of them being WGI with the sprays, in order to take on the speedbump infantry. Or, maybe, a Gun Carriage with the WGI would be the right set up although damn it all the GC is just a bit too pillow fisted for the matchups I want to use my "not Wolves" list in except with Vlad 1 who just fixes everything.
Question folks - can you use sprays to target stealth models that are more than 5" away?
I held my feat until Turn 3, and decided to go for the assassination instead of attrition since I eyed a way to get a fully loaded boundless charged Jugger onto Kreuger 2. He missed two out of 3 of his bought attacks, hitting 3 out of 5 times, and so did not do enough damage to take K2 out. I died on the counterattack since Karchev was too exposed. In retrospect, I think I take this game if I play for attrition and just get the Beasts off the table and keep Karchev safe. Like I said, lessons were learned.
I'm not convinced about Karchev vs. going back to Vlad 1 or Butcher 3 in a jack heavy WGI build. Also, with the two circle scenario, it might be possible to get by with one real unit and some weapon crews, but a second real SPD 6 shooty unit would be nice.
Game 3 was against Wormwood Tharn in King of the Hill. It just didn't seem like I could reliably drop Karchev into King of the Hill. Again, another potential reason to reach for The Boss, since I think Vlad's 14" control range helps a lot here.
This was not much of a game, since my opponent left Wormwood too far forward without enough stuff in the way, so I was able to get a Curse of Shadows and 3 screaming doomreavers on his caster at the top of 2 for the win. Didn't feel like a game.
My next big tournament, and only traveling convention for the year, is Gen Con.
I'm definitely bringing Wolves. OW2 might be good, but she doesn't travel well (I didn't magnetize her) so I am considering other options (more on that later).
As for my off list, it's still either Armored Korp or jack-heavy WGI/Jaws. I don't think Jaws handles the new scenarios well. If the new theme packet were dropped, I'd consider Sorscha 3 with 4 jacks.
So some additional thoughts...
...In a non-jack list, you may still want to consider 3 jacks in your line up, not 2. If you only have 2, you don't have redundancy to score 2 rectangle zones. Also, in the wide scenario, you need to send your 2 jacks wide, which means you have a soft squishy center and depending on what you and your opponent brought.
...Jaws with only one unit seems like a dead end. You really want to be able to score multiple wide circles.
...Wolves is awesome. It's stock is way up. I'm going to start testing Alexia on horseback for the mobile thrall production. I also definitely always want 30 doomies. Yup. Maybe that's me.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 30, 2019 19:27:20 GMT
Question folks - can you use sprays to target stealth models that are more than 5" away? You can TARGET Stealth models with ANYTHING, at any range. You just automatically miss if you're over 5" away and don't have a special rule that allows you to ignore Stealth. Sprays are one such rule: they ignore Stealth. So yes, you can target and hit Stealth models from over 5" away with sprays.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 2, 2019 11:40:33 GMT
Thanks Soul Samurai. So, folks, can we talk seriously for a minute about the Demolisher? Given the new wide scenarios, is it time for this independent jack to make a come back? Normally when I want something steady, sturdy, and ARM 23 I would reach for a Devastator. But if you’re too far away to get focus, then you’re probably not charging anyone so distance is an issue. The Demolisher’s guns solve that problem. Also, maybe we’ve forgotten how good immunity to blast damage is...or maybe it’s not that good...but in something like Wolves I might like to hide a Koldun Lord or Escort behind one of these guys. I dunno...
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Post by hocestbellum on Jul 2, 2019 12:09:47 GMT
'Solve' is a strong word! The key points to bear in mind are that you are RAT4, and the blasts are 3". You often won't hit directly, and you won't hit a lot with the scattered blasts, and using the guns makes you worse at the primary job of being an indestructible lump.
It's perfectly serviceable as a roadblock, but if that's what it's there for there's not a huge amount of use in paying the extra points over the Devastator
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