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Post by Azahul on Jun 23, 2019 23:28:11 GMT
So word on the street is that pigs specifically can look forward to a number of changes when the Rules Remix drops, including but not necessarily limited to:
-Point drops on almost all Warbeasts -No longer forcing for Dials(!!!) -Commandos gaining Ambush natively -Thornfall Alliance giving Rise to Farrow, and two trench templates and, as a fun bonus perk for giggles, giving Farrow Warbeasts Salvage so they can heal themselves by smashing 'jacks -Bone Grinders gaining Bloodthirst -Slaughterhousers possibly getting a little bit tougher -Sturm and Drang getting Reposition 3
Some of those may have some question marks floating above them, particularly those last two points.
For general Minions, Will Work For Food loses the +2 Speed and free Runs on turn one (most themes are apparently losing benefits that put them up the table faster or give them increased deployment zones), but replaces it with allowing Lesser Warlocks to upkeep spells for free.
All of this subject to the obvious disclaimer that the devs involved in these chats are going from memory and that some final iterations may be subject to change.
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Post by mydnight on Jun 24, 2019 1:41:20 GMT
"allowing Lesser Warlocks to upkeep spells for free." What on earth would they want to upkeep? Aside from Dahlia this is a major nerf to the theme. Pigpen is near useless, wrongeye has no upkeeps, and brun is never taken. I guess Mire gets a nice buff with free weald secrets. Slaughterhousers just need to be dirt cheap. Unyielding is useless on their statline, hence being tougher should be 5 wounds each or 4+ tough. Knowing PP they'll probably just gain steady Commandos gaining ambush is awesome sauce.
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Post by Azahul on Jun 24, 2019 2:00:19 GMT
I mean, I take him in what I consider to be one of the strongest answers to the current meta available to Minions It is a nerf to the theme overall, but with everyone else losing equivalent abilities I find it hard to be too sad. It should be good for the game as a whole to haul back a bit on the race to the centre. Plus I like that WWFF buffs the lessers explicitly. I use all three of the Warlocks it truly benefits (Dahlia, Mire, Brun) with regularity. The biggest beneficiary is probably Mire, since I rarely cast Weald Secrets unless I explicitly need it because I'd rather he have one cloud and two transfers or two clouds unless the need for Pathfinder is truly dire. His flexibility improves a bit this way. The big improvements for me though at first blush are the point decreases and removing the need to force for dials for the War Hog, Road Hog, and Battle Boar. Suddenly War Hogs go from lacklustre compared to competitors in other factions, to actually stacking up quite favourably indeed. The trench templates and Rise for Thornfall are also super cool, but I'm still just a little iffy about running infantry (especially ones with pig stats) in the meta right now. Still, plenty of excuses to dojo and experiment. I may actually be running something other than the same two lists I've been playing for the last nine months sometime soon!
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Post by mydnight on Jun 24, 2019 2:02:49 GMT
I mean, I take him in what I consider to be one of the strongest answers to the current meta available to Minions Genuinely curious -- where to you include Brun and how do you run him?
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by bacon on Jun 24, 2019 2:09:56 GMT
Pretty bold of you to say "brun is never taken" in an Azhaul thread.
Just curious but do you have the links to the exact videos where they discuss the theme changes and oblivion? They have a lot of videos on Facebook and none of them have a description.
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Post by Azahul on Jun 24, 2019 2:13:31 GMT
Genuinely curious -- where to you include Brun and how do you run him? I run them in my Sturm and Drang list. The whole thing looks like: Sturm and Drang -War Hog -Battle Boar -Battle Boar -Soul Slave Mire -Dracodile Brun -Lug Dahlia -Skarath Eilish Orin Mist Speaker Gobber Chef This list typically plays pretty conservatively, anchored around a Polarity Shielded Dracodile. Brun and Lug play a role due to their native Pathfinder, their Counter Charge option making the list a bit more difficult to engage (just one component of a large interlocking web of abilities that the opponent has to factor in), and their hit-and-return functionality. When playing defensively and just trying to lock down the board, being able to yo-yo in and out of combat with Return is enormously valuable. Native Pathfinder allows them to play in and around terrain without issues, which makes those retreat moves all the more effective. And having Mat 7 makes Lug markedly more effective into the large swathe of popular Def 13 infantry like Tharn Ravagers and Immortals with Grave Wind up than most pig heavies for the same price point, or Def 13 heavies like Slayers for that matter. Bear Paws and Chain Attack: Smash and Grab also allows the pair to set up other models in the list effectively (knocking over 2-3 Slayers in a turn so that the Dracodile can go to town without Primal is massive). Like most of the components in that list, they don't typically have explosive turns of enormous damage. But they can safely and reliably help to chip away at the enemy all game and don't have to expose themselves to retaliation in order to help the rest of the list the way other heavies would need to. I have oodles of battle reports in my battle report thread further down the page (which I'll have to update with Lock and Load reports sometime soon) showcasing the list in action if you want explicit examples.
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Post by Azahul on Jun 24, 2019 2:15:14 GMT
Pretty bold of you to say "brun is never taken" in an Azhaul thread. Just curious but do you have the links to the exact videos where they discuss the theme changes and oblivion? They have a lot of videos on Facebook and none of them have a description. These were just chats with developers as Lock and Load was winding up. I don't think they're actually in any of the videos (though I was busy smashing out games and cornering PP Staff in small dark rooms, so I didn't actually see much of the video recorded stuff in person) beyond some of the basic stuff about the Theme Remix from the Keynote.
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Post by galiman on Jun 24, 2019 16:33:31 GMT
Hot takes on these rumors. Rise on pigs is good and gives more stock to commandos since rise and feign death seems dirty...33% of the time and not effect by grevious/mortality. The trench is also neat? Brigands already have dig in. Would like for a speed buff of some kind on brigands. Salvage is cute I guess. I’ve never been a fan of conditional rules like snacking and salvage etc. Bloodthirst on bone grinders is neat I guess? Aggression dial not needing to be forced is the change we’ve all been waiting for. Our beats are finally fury 4! S&D repo just makes sense. He’s basically a cav model. Commando change was more or less a given.
Wasn’t this change to WWFF one of the options they were considering during the dev talk in cid that the community immediately rejected? It’s a neat little bonus but the theme is going to need at least something else to make it feel viable
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Post by Azahul on Jun 24, 2019 18:00:14 GMT
S&D repo just makes sense. He’s basically a cav model. Apparently they were pushing for him to be made cavalry at some point but there were problems physically fitting more elements onto his card The Salvage bonus from Thornfall was mentioned as functionally a "free" benefit. One of those rules, similar to the Man-O-War Kovnik being a 'jack marshal, that is there not because the devs expect it to come up competitively but because they think it's cool and suits the fluff. That said, in the last few months I've come to appreciate Snacking on the Dracodile for allowing me to top it up from any ship damage, and I don't hate the idea of having the rule there. And honestly, in a world where almost all themes are losing deployment/first turn speed increases, I'm happier with the WWFF change the longer I think about it. Sure, it makes the list a lot weaker when going first, but it's a straight buff when going second. And there were enough popular lists around with bonuses to the starting roll that I couldn't honestly say I can expect first turn 50% of the time.
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Post by galiman on Jun 24, 2019 18:53:16 GMT
Yea I figured salvage was one of those rules...like pull on Ambushers 😐 Any word on if they intend to make Drang slightly more attractive? I’m in agreement on the aspect for WWFF I just think it’ll need another benefit to be considered over other themes.
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Post by Azahul on Jun 24, 2019 19:00:20 GMT
If I remember correctly efforts to have Sturm and Drang (Drang specifically anyway) to have a bit of an overhaul were all shot down sadly I think WWFF's access to the full support options keeps it in the game, at least for pigs. Overtake on Warbeasts is also huge in a medium base infantry meta.
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Post by ghoulio on Jun 24, 2019 19:43:39 GMT
If I remember correctly efforts to have Sturm and Drang (Drang specifically anyway) to have a bit of an overhaul were all shot down sadly I think WWFF's access to the full support options keeps it in the game, at least for pigs. Overtake on Warbeasts is also huge in a medium base infantry meta.
Ah, thats too bad. I would have loved for Drang to get something to make switching to him more attractive. Overall I am quite pleased. Even if this update was removing the fury component from the dials and making the beasts cheaper I would be super happy. Can't wait to see the official changes. I heard they were updating the themes relatively soon in War Room so people playing in the WTC could play with the changes (they said a toggle between the current themes and new ones). Hopefully we can see some of the changes then (at least to the actual Thornfall Alliance theme. I managed to get a second brand new Meat Thresher as well as few boxes of slaughterhousers and brigands for less than $20 each so I am hoping they are worth playing haha.
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Post by galiman on Jun 24, 2019 19:51:21 GMT
I’m a little sad there’s no mention of new models for pigs (support wise, not Helga). Even with rise they feel mediocre. Hopefully these changes come with more surprises. And not changing drang feels weak to me. He might as well not exist and eliminates the cool duality of the caster. Can it be August yet? Hopefully we get more in a dev chat.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Jun 24, 2019 20:06:29 GMT
All sounds pretty promising, at least in the respect that nearly everything is getting looked at. I like Sturm & Drang and have played them enough to feel that they can live without too much tinkering outside of a flat buff to the feat. It's cool but against warmachine, power-up and abilities like empower really undermine the impact. There are tweaks and changes that would be nice to see but I'll take repo' 3" as something useful. They've received a lot of benefits from the various releases that have come out over the past couple of years. I'd like to see a rework done on Midas. (I would like to enjoy playing him but I just haven't found the right balance yet. That may be in part down to still no managing to acquire any valkyries though.)
I will be so happy to see dials no longer require forcing. That will be so welcome.
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Post by custardboy on Jun 24, 2019 23:49:17 GMT
The Farrow beasts coming down 1-2 points is nice, as is the dials being fixed. I'd like for some other non-functioning tech to be fixed but OK.
Slaughterhousers being tougher is redundant unless they're being given boxes or higher def. They need to be extremely cheap! As ever, they'll be better in Skorne though. We've got a problem with the rumours for skorne- DoA and IW being merged so every skorne caster can take all minion beasts. I've totally given up on pigs, so maybe I can make use of war hogs in skorne? If they're costed and balanced correctly for pigs they'll be ridiculous in skorne. 14/20, mat 8 p+s 25 with free charge and free dial!
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