jamesp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by jamesp on Jun 23, 2019 3:59:52 GMT
Hey guys, just curious on a rules interaction with BoH choosing to remove from play and the grimkin arcana “sacrifice”. As I’m aware RFP stops this arcana from triggering, at what point do you have to declare the choice to RFP? Say you roll damage and it dies, the Grymkin player then activates his arcana, is it to late to declare the RFP?
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Post by Trollock on Jun 23, 2019 11:03:49 GMT
Read the rules for takedown and the arcana again. The answer is there.
RFP triggers first 😁
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jamesp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by jamesp on Jun 23, 2019 14:10:56 GMT
I understand that, I have had an issue of not “declaring” my choice to RFP his model fast enough for him to pop the arcana. So I’m just curious I couldn’t find anywhere in the rule book to say when exactly I have to declare it. It’s been a couple times now I have killed a beast with a champion and then he uses it and claims I have to declare I’m choosing to RFP before the model is killed. Am I’m in the wrong for not saying I RFP after I kill something before he can activate the arcana?
Edit-
Basically at what point do you say that your choosing to RFP, before every attack or after you roll damage, or as soon as something dies? Or does it not matter when you declare?
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jun 23, 2019 15:21:17 GMT
That honestly sounds more like a matter of bad sportsmanship than an issue with the rules. Why not declare at the beginning of the match that every single kill will be RFP? overtake and cleave still proc, right?
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Post by moridamn on Jun 23, 2019 16:57:18 GMT
There is no "not fast enough." You decide to RFP once the model is boxed, so after damage is applied to the model and before it is removed from the table. Your opponent does not get to decide the pace of your turn, therefore he cant say you didn't declare your RFP fast enough.
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jamesp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by jamesp on Jun 23, 2019 17:00:09 GMT
That might be a good way to do it. Of course the beasts can’t RFP, and Madrak1 needs to NOT RFP in order to get blood boon, so I guess just word that appropriately at the start of my turn one. Thanks.
Edit-
So if the model dies and it gets removed before I declare/forget to to RFP then he’s free so use it?
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Jun 23, 2019 17:47:42 GMT
That honestly sounds more like a matter of bad sportsmanship than an issue with the rules. Why not declare at the beginning of the match that every single kill will be RFP? overtake and cleave still proc, right? Sadly, no, overtake and cleave proc on destroy only. The fix I had hoped for was that all FF rules that trigger on destroy would also trigger on RFP, which would make Hero's Tragedy function against RFP theme forces, but instead they just made it optional. Also, Snacking RFPs before healing, so you can still snack even if you are full. |
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Post by Trollock on Jun 24, 2019 11:41:28 GMT
Just like with counter charge, and other things that happens on the opponents turn there is a sort of grey area on whos responsibility it is to make sure things happen in the correct order. With the counter charge example, you cant run one of your guys in counter charge range and then move the next guy in a unit super fast so the opponent does not have time to counter charge. But on the flip side, your opponent cant remember to counter charge your first guy after you moved like 5 guys. Then most players would agree that he lost his chance.
In the case of snacking or take down there is a clear order things happen. First you hit and damage a model. Then it becomes disabled and things like tough trigger. Then it becomes Boxed and things like snacking and take down trigger. Then it becomes destroyed and things like the arcana trigger. Then you remove the model from the table. Your opponent cant declare he is using the arcana before you have moved on to the destroyed step in the process.
Im assuming that in this case you killed a guy and picked up the model (or your opponent did more likely). Then the opponent said "but ill trigger the arcana when it is destroyed", and you said "but then i want to RFP the model before that!" In casual games AND in super competitive high level games, both players would agree that "of course you RFP before the arcana triggers" as both players want the game to play out at it is meant to, and not be decided on a random "haha! you forgot to say X!"
If you want to talk technically correct, im assuming that it was indeed your opponent who picked up his own "dead" model and then said "ill trigger the arcana cause you forgot to RFP!". Then he too has actually forgotten to trigger it, as he already moved on to the "remove the model from the table" step which happens after he can have triggered the arcana.
The only way i see this playing out as he gets to trigger the arcana and you dont get to trigger RFP first is if he actually asks you "will you RFP the model before it is destroyed?" and you saying "no", or if you picked up his model and he said, "before you do that, i want to trigger my arcana".
TLDR: RFP happens before the arcana, BUT it is a sportsmanship issue as you do not keep flipping clock back and forth during the Dosabled, Boxed, Destroyed sequence. Best to be clear next time that you will always RFP unless you say something different if the opponent has this type of arcana and tends to be too quick to shout out his evil master plan on your turn...
PS. the PP rules forums will net you way better answers than mine. It is the only thing that the PP forum is still useful for.
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Post by Trollock on Jun 24, 2019 11:55:06 GMT
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jamesp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by jamesp on Jun 24, 2019 14:20:35 GMT
Thanks everyone! Very helpful, and I will maybe put a small post on the privateer forums as well.
Edit-
I rechecked the arcana and it triggers after removing the destroyed model from the table. So I guess that’s the stickler he has been using, as I’m not declaring I RFP the model continues to destroyed then removed from table into arcana. But yeah I’ll check with the PP fourms as I don’t play enough to grasp every little thing and the games have left a sour taste.
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Post by Trollock on Jun 24, 2019 16:17:11 GMT
Thanks everyone! Very helpful, and I will maybe put a small post on the privateer forums as well. Edit- I rechecked the arcana and it triggers after removing the destroyed model from the table. So I guess that’s the stickler he has been using, as I’m not declaring I RFP the model continues to destroyed then removed from table into arcana. But yeah I’ll check with the PP fourms as I don’t play enough to grasp every little thing and the games have left a sour taste. If YOU remove the model from the table, or continue making other attacks or wot not you have no argument. He cant roll forth the sequence to remove from table since it happens on your time. If you want to move on, and forget to declare RFP, that is on you though. |
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jamesp
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by jamesp on Jun 24, 2019 17:59:41 GMT
All right, so he’s right. Just feels very “haha gotcha” but i guess he’s in the right to do it. Thanks.
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Post by Trollock on Jun 24, 2019 18:38:56 GMT
All right, so he’s right. Just feels very “haha gotcha” but i guess he’s in the right to do it. Thanks. Oh it IS very "gotcha" and not conducive to a good game. But if he wants to be a stickler for the rules you can be that right back. We ALL make small mini misstakes during a game and if he wants to play hardball it is usually not hard to make that a terrible experience by nit picking things like timing of orders for units, or accidentally moving one guy in a unit and then wanting to adjust the position after moving another. Better if you do like the pros and agree to help each other play the game cleanly. Much more fun for both players and that is the point of the game after all 😅 |
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Jul 2, 2019 12:02:42 GMT
Or, you can play it old school. Get an old metal Earthborn for a pittance on ebay, put it in a sock, the longer style, and anytime he reaches for the model to remove them.... BAM! Sock-jack his fingers and declare that you are RFPing that model.  |
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