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Post by auraco on Jun 23, 2019 5:01:05 GMT
Any chance Jaws and WGK getting folded into one theme? Even though I love Forge Seers with Behemoth, nothing else about Jaws is really compelling. I think it's what makes the most sense if we have two theme merging.
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Post by auraco on Jun 23, 2019 5:06:24 GMT
Jaws is terrible and it doesn't seem that the theme force change is going to change much of that unless they do a major rework on it. It's a spd 4 jack theme that doesn't really help you with scenario, especially against armies that rely on advance deployment instead of on ambush... Not saying all will be perfect, but:
(1) With the theme force change, Jaws won't be a "jack theme". It will get the same freebies as everyone else. It will be the stealthy infantry theme that includes slightly more options for controlling jacks than other themes;
(2) Didn't PP expressly say that they thought ambushers would be very valuable in one of the new scenarios? If so, Jaws might have a role as a theme to at least remove a scenario edge. If the scenario also starts to push the meta to include more ambushing models, then the Jaws theme benefit becomes more valuable too.
Maybe jaws won't be a jack theme anymore, but it doesn't make it any less terrible, there is a reason why people only take forge seers in jaws, it's because even if we can take them in wolves of winter and in armored corps they are not worth it in these theme because empower bots are not very good. So it becomes a kayazy theme then, eliminators are good, but the assassins are overcosted for the short threat range they bring to the table, if they were a couple of point cheaper then it would be interesting but as it stands, it's a resounding meh. As for jaws removing ambushers, it's a very meh benefit when you consider that most AD stuff also has advance deployment, and that while it does remove ambushers, it's still our theme with the least board presence (slow jack, short threat range models, no advance move and very few AD models) so in the end it's a resounding meh for scenario presence even with the no ambush... I hope it gets folded into an other theme, because as it stands it just means most of our casters will be able to run with more jacks in other theme and not really have a reason to play in jaws.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 23, 2019 7:58:48 GMT
For the record, I think running Seers as pure Empower bots is a mistake. Feel like I'm missing out on the cool marshal abilities with that set Drive if I don't take at least one jack under them.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 23, 2019 11:45:02 GMT
Yeah, they've got a great drive and Empower is handy, but that's kind of it. I'm happy to take them without marshalling jacks with someone like Karchev, S3 or B1; great battlegroup buffs but limited focus.
It becomes a little easier now, though; you can take a Forge Seer with a Destroyer in a few different lists as a powerful shooting module without impacting your free options. Keen to try that out.
Thinking a little more about the options that this could open up; there's quite a few casters who are regarded as wanting to generally run infantry, but also like having more than min-points jacks. Sorscha3 is a good example; incredible battlegroup buff, but has been hampered by also wanting to take 60 points of MoW for freebies. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see 4 jacks on S3 now, maybe 5 or more if you start running Berzerkers.
Old Witch needs jacks for heavy lifting and has a really good Field Marshal, but is otherwise an infantry caster. Perhaps she can have some time in the sun. Same for Malakov2; he can take a better balance of jacks and infantry now.
Harkevich, our least useful caster... I tried running him in Wolves so that he could get access to Brittle Frost, Ice Cage and Empower, but previously you were cutting heavily into jack points just to get a single freebie. Not any more! I still think his complete lack of anything useful after feating will hamstring him, but I'm interested in giving it a shot.
Strakhov1, Kozlov, maybe Zerkova1 too, all kind of walk the line of wanting a reasonable battlegroup, but not wanting jack-spam. This would seem to open a lot of options.
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Post by auraco on Jun 23, 2019 17:04:07 GMT
Yeah there are clearly a couple of our caster whol will benefit from that. Butcher3 likes a mid size battlegroup, currently jaws is too jack heavy for him and winterguard kommand means cutting a free card more often than not.
Sorscha3 will like being able to take one more heavy without cutting into the free cards. And she pretty much needs to be in armored corps to work.
Malakov2 also like this change, now I could see him in a lot more theme than before, simply because he’s going to be able to run a mid size battlegroup in all theme.
I’m sure time will tell if other casters also benefit from it enough to affect the meta.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 23, 2019 17:51:08 GMT
Yeah there are clearly a couple of our caster whol will benefit from that. Butcher3 likes a mid size battlegroup, currently jaws is too jack heavy for him and winterguard kommand means cutting a free card more often than not. Sorscha3 will like being able to take one more heavy without cutting into the free cards. And she pretty much needs to be in armored corps to work. Malakov2 also like this change, now I could see him in a lot more theme than before, simply because he’s going to be able to run a mid size battlegroup in all theme. I’m sure time will tell if other casters also benefit from it enough to affect the meta. I immediately thought of S3 as well. I also think V2 gets some benefits (In both AC and Wolves) because you can now strongly consider taking Nyss+V with him and not lose points. I think, in the end, Nyss are better than ponies. Different but I think that more bodies for feat tokens and angles to get into attack benefit him. What I hope is that Wolves keeps all three benefits/requisition points as they are critical to making it a great theme for us.
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Post by auraco on Jun 23, 2019 20:18:50 GMT
Merc not getting in the way of free cards is a good thing, especially with the Archons coming up. Vlad2 really doesn’t want a bigger battlegroup, but je can get good mileage out of mercs.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 23, 2019 20:50:37 GMT
Makes bad themes worse and good themes better.
Some casters with this deserve another look, in particular, all jack casters. Go full jack, get 3 free artillery pieces and 3 free advance moves? Yes, please.
Infantry casters already have all themes and bonuses they could ever want.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 23, 2019 20:55:23 GMT
Not to be a debby downer but did Khador do ANYTHING at L&L this year? Definately didnt make the streaming table. Mostly circle and skorne. Game really is devoling to "Buy a lot of factions, play the one that got recently powercrept"
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 23, 2019 21:58:10 GMT
Not to be a debby downer but did Khador do ANYTHING at L&L this year? Definately didnt make the streaming table. Mostly circle and skorne. Game really is devoling to "Buy a lot of factions, play the one that got recently powercrept" Rumour has it that Circle are getting a bit of a nerf; they want to make Iona DH weaker to gunlines, so they're considering removing/replacing phantasm. Also rumours of LotF becoming melee 1" and the bird dropping to RNG8. Call of the Wild being folded into the Wild Hunt might shake up a few of the third lists, like that Una2 Call one. For my own part, the CID process has made me less inclined to buy new factions. I like Khador, and I have faith that even if the CID leaves them in a bad spot the fact that it's an ongoing process means that the wheel keeps turning. There's a massive shakeup in listbuilding just around the corner, and that's coupled with an apparent willingness to tone down the outliers like DH. That kind of makes whatever happens at L&L, and maybe even the WTC, irrelevant. We've got no idea what the dominant lists will be by the end of the year. So stand firm, komrade! A new day is coming, and it's up to us to be ready to seize it!
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 23, 2019 23:17:08 GMT
Threads merged.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 24, 2019 3:02:03 GMT
Makes bad themes worse and good themes better. Some casters with this deserve another look, in particular, all jack casters. Go full jack, get 3 free artillery pieces and 3 free advance moves? Yes, please. Infantry casters already have all themes and bonuses they could ever want. I highly disagree. Themes/lists that are already optimized and have little wiggle room will see the least benefit. Where as themes that were bad will become less restrictive and allow mercs/battle group to fill gaps where they couldn't before. Legion is a prime example of how poor themes will get better. Tharn is probably a prime example of how good themes won't change too much.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 24, 2019 3:21:29 GMT
Except if Los keeps no character restriction on merc unit which means no nyss.....I GUESS one could try steelheads
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 24, 2019 8:27:41 GMT
Another interesting rumour going round is that the theme benefits will be changing so that there is no +1 to starting rolls, no +2 deployment zones, and no Advance Moves except on MoWs. (Poor WGK jacks...)
That does come from Party Foul though, so perhaps take it with a pinch of salt.
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Post by michael on Jun 24, 2019 16:05:10 GMT
Not to be a debby downer but did Khador do ANYTHING at L&L this year? Definately didnt make the streaming table. Mostly circle and skorne. Game really is devoling to "Buy a lot of factions, play the one that got recently powercrept" Depending on how you treat Mercenaries and Minions and their subthemes, Khador represents either 1/15th or 1/18th of Warmachine & Hordes. Perpetually seeing them in top 3 or top 5 or whatever is probably not realistic. There’s probably also an argument to be made (a good argument, even!) that there’s a relatively small and insular group of individuals that repeatedly compose the top 10 or top 20 players in this game, and simple personal preference must be factored in when discussing such things. Last year Khador —Armored Corps specifically— probably composed a good 20% of all players in the Iron Arena. This year Khador was more like 6% (a.k.a. 1/15th ) of the Iron Arena. What does it mean for Khador as a faction? Absolutely nothing.
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