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Post by mcdermott on Jun 29, 2019 3:40:41 GMT
I'm not sure why the expectation should be there that a community should alter what it enjoys playing for someone who only shows up once every 3 months or so? Or why they should be putting effort into building a group based around the style of play someone you see once every three months enjoys.
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 29, 2019 4:02:11 GMT
I'm not sure why the expectation should be there that a community should alter what it enjoys playing for someone who only shows up once every 3 months or so? Or why they should be putting effort into building a group based around the style of play someone you see once every three months enjoys. Hmm, maybe I would find more impetus to show up if I didn't automatically expect to be put on the side lines when I do? Right now, I have a far better chance of playing 40K or HeroClix when I DO show up. HEROCLIX!
Maybe that same attitude is what left it so those more casual players were driven out, so those of us who could only make it in every so often can't find anyone to play with?
Maybe so that some of those casual players would bother sticking around long enough to play with and learn some things to take to Steamroller?
We're talking about growing a meta, and leaving a meta toxic to anyone but the hard-core tournament types usually is counter to such a development.
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Post by mcdermott on Jun 29, 2019 9:55:37 GMT
Either you CANT get away more than once every 3 months or so to play, and therefore cant take a pro-active role in building a community that enjoys playing the way you do, or you could, but you just dont feel like it. I'm starting to get the impression you COULD but just dont feel like putting in the effort because its easier to complain on a forum about how your community (Which you participate in about once every three months or so) doesn't play the game the way you'd like them to.
Take your own happiness into your own hands dude, either put in some effort to develop a community that enjoys the game the way you do, or move on to different games and put warmachine behind you. Its not a group of people you see once every quarter years responsibility to ensure you have people playing the game the way you want to play it if you only show up once every three months.
As for this?
Maybe those casual players showed up more often than once a season, got better at the game and transitioned to steamroller players.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Jun 29, 2019 15:42:19 GMT
So throwing in my own two cents about “extreme rollers”. They do ruin the game, I know because I’ve been in both a healthy meta and an extreme roller meta. In the extreme roller meta I watched as four or five new players showed up (usually all of once) and after experiencing the “extreme roller” attitude left and never came back. Not only that when CID started many of the “extreme roller” crowd was unhappy and if I hadn’t created another, casual, gaming night I wouldn’t currently have a meta at all.
Now when I talk extreme roller what I’m talking about the following actual experience I’ve had: - no one starts playing or new who they were playing until everyone coming that night had showed up - dice were used to determine who played who (with a small exception that you couldn’t play the same person two weeks in a row) - boards were then laid out via the current steam roller packet and as many different pieces HAD to be used. - you then presented your written up, two list pairing to your opponent and then selected what list you’d be playing.
That was the attitude on our regular game night... even for new players. Any variance was met with subtle hostility and reminders that 75 points two list was the way the game was designed, or that we had to wait for everyone to show up.
Compare this to the healthy meta I was part of: - you could pre-establish who you wanted to play against prior if you wanted and when you both got there start your game. - if not you could show up, and the first people there would simply start playing - if a new person showed up the veteran players would either stop, or pause their game so that one could assist the new player and the other play against them - any point value was played, especially if that’s all that was available to a player. - you dropped what you wanted to play, rather then being shown lists, having to think about what you were pairing with your list, etc. - oh and boards were set up by the first people to show up, and although some times steam roller set up was used, other times terrain was more or less just eye balled.
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Post by michael on Jun 30, 2019 3:56:03 GMT
So throwing in my own two cents about “extreme rollers”. They do ruin the game, I know because I’ve been in both a healthy meta and an extreme roller meta. In the extreme roller meta I watched as four or five new players showed up (usually all of once) and after experiencing the “extreme roller” attitude left and never came back. Not only that when CID started many of the “extreme roller” crowd was unhappy and if I hadn’t created another, casual, gaming night I wouldn’t currently have a meta at all. Now when I talk extreme roller what I’m talking about the following actual experience I’ve had: - no one starts playing or new who they were playing until everyone coming that night had showed up - dice were used to determine who played who (with a small exception that you couldn’t play the same person two weeks in a row) - boards were then laid out via the current steam roller packet and as many different pieces HAD to be used. - you then presented your written up, two list pairing to your opponent and then selected what list you’d be playing. That was the attitude on our regular game night... even for new players. Any variance was met with subtle hostility and reminders that 75 points two list was the way the game was designed, or that we had to wait for everyone to show up. Compare this to the healthy meta I was part of: - you could pre-establish who you wanted to play against prior if you wanted and when you both got there start your game. - if not you could show up, and the first people there would simply start playing - if a new person showed up the veteran players would either stop, or pause their game so that one could assist the new player and the other play against them - any point value was played, especially if that’s all that was available to a player. - you dropped what you wanted to play, rather then being shown lists, having to think about what you were pairing with your list, etc. - oh and boards were set up by the first people to show up, and although some times steam roller set up was used, other times terrain was more or less just eye balled. Re: extreme roller experiences You played with a weird crowd, dude! That sounds awful! Re: the other stuff Kudos to you for taking the initiative and building a more friendly and open environment!
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 30, 2019 15:19:24 GMT
Either you CANT get away more than once every 3 months or so to play, and therefore cant take a pro-active role in building a community that enjoys playing the way you do, or you could, but you just dont feel like it. I'm starting to get the impression you COULD but just dont feel like putting in the effort because its easier to complain on a forum about how your community (Which you participate in about once every three months or so) doesn't play the game the way you'd like them to. Take your own happiness into your own hands dude, either put in some effort to develop a community that enjoys the game the way you do, or move on to different games and put warmachine behind you. Its not a group of people you see once every quarter years responsibility to ensure you have people playing the game the way you want to play it if you only show up once every three months. It's called "choosing your battles". Right now, it's not worth the trouble to try and arrange those nights. Being married with kids carries obligations. There are times change can happen.
And maybe you're right that I need to alter my hobby again. But to what? GW's broken rule system that I've already dropped once for cause? X-Wing which carries little hobby with it?
And why cannot I complain about people who have a self-destructive attitude towards the game that I enjoy the hobby aspect of and respect the rule system for and are trying to keep the game hostage to their whims?
As for this? Maybe those casual players showed up more often than once a season, got better at the game and transitioned to steamroller players. Nope, at least, not to any significant degree. The competitive meta really isn't that big, just sufficiently toxic. I've had the casual players tell me that they were driven out and tell me they've either moved back or moved on.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Jun 30, 2019 15:48:27 GMT
Hey Charistoph, have you tried MonPoc? Not sure if it's big enough in your area, or if you have an interest, but to me it looks like a far less competitive game, that also has the opportunity for conversions. Plus it seems to have a semi-tight rule set... so that's a thing. Not saying don't fight for warmachine, but if your back is up against a wall... maybe it's an option? Again not saying you're wrong about "extreme rollers" as seen by my above statement, just trying to offer other alternative to see if they could / might help at all... brainstorming if you will.
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 30, 2019 16:28:45 GMT
I haven't tried it yet (thought, not for lack of wanting), and I'm concerned about its viability at my LGS. I haven't seen people play it (though, that's saying little right now), or even ask for games on the facebook pages. My LGS has it part of the Warmachine section (all 6 feet of it), and even that is only a few pegs worth (the last time I was there). I could post it up to see how healthy people are seeing it around.
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shmeep
Junior Strategist
Posts: 742
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Post by shmeep on Jun 30, 2019 16:32:54 GMT
Pretty much what the others said, if you don't have the means establish a community and can't rally your casual players together then fighting the extremers seems pointless. I mentioned card games before because I draw my players from the YGO community, but if you want to stay in the mini world MonPoc and Guild Ball seem like decent alternatives.
The more casual the players, the less time (and usuallt money) they'll want to invest, which small, simple games are great for.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 1, 2019 1:24:12 GMT
Re: extreme roller experiences You played with a weird crowd, dude! That sounds awful! That's the type of clear Judgmental call we should really avoid. "I didn't enjoy playing the way they wanted to play, so I formed a separate group of like minded individuals" is healthy and mature, and totally what we should all be doing and encouraging. "Those guys are weird, and should be shamed for it" not so much. If they want to wait for everyone to show up and roll dice to do parings... let them. If they want to have beers and get drunk while playing... let them. If they want to play nothing but CID... let them. If they want to play games and go to a strip bar afterwards... Firetrucking let them! Nobody is forcing anyone to engage with anybody else, but if we don't leave behind this victim mentality of "my game was ruined because of X group" then we will forever surrender our hobby to external factors. Firetruck that.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Jul 1, 2019 3:43:19 GMT
Re: extreme roller experiences You played with a weird crowd, dude! That sounds awful! That's the type of clear Judgmental call we should really avoid. "I didn't enjoy playing the way they wanted to play, so I formed a separate group of like minded individuals" is healthy and mature, and totally what we should all be doing and encouraging. "Those guys are weird, and should be shamed for it" not so much. If they want to wait for everyone to show up and roll dice to do parings... let them. If they want to have beers and get drunk while playing... let them. If they want to play nothing but CID... let them. If they want to play games and go to a strip bar afterwards... Firetrucking let them! Nobody is forcing anyone to engage with anybody else, but if we don't leave behind this victim mentality of "my game was ruined because of X group" then we will forever surrender our hobby to external factors. Firetruck that. Has to go both ways there bud... I was literally told I couldn't play the new guy "because I didn't roll for it". We got snubbed for a while because WE SHOWED UP EARLY AND PLAYED BY OURSELVES! I watched someone new get HARASSED THAT THEY ONLY HAD 50 POINTS TO PLAY BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THEY OWNED!!! And I was told by other people who USED to play that these guys had done this to every group in the city, and what was left was the ones that enjoyed it that way. I mean say what you will, but their complete devotion to the "HARD CORE TOURNAMENT ONLY YARRR HOW DARE YOU PLAY ANYTHING ELSE" was LITERALLY KILLING THE GAME! I know of another meta that's not too far away that's having a similar problem because they're going about it THE EXACT SAME WAY!!! Meanwhile the healthy groups I've mentioned are staying strong and are actually the ones hosting a lot of the tournaments around here. You may not like it... but "Extreme Roller" AKA "Only Steamroller tournament all the time every time with no exceptions or else havok ensues" mentality DOES NOT WORK. It's bad for any game, and it's bad for this game. If that's how you like to play (and I'm not trying to attack you, I'm passionate because of personal experience) might I suggest toning it down a bit? Maybe invite people to play off the normal game night at home or at a store that will let you? Just don't do it on the dedicated night where at any given time someone new might want to learn, or be coming for their first time, and don't immediately get turned off and never show up again (again I saw this happen minimum 5 times).
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jul 1, 2019 16:51:28 GMT
That's the type of clear Judgmental call we should really avoid. "I didn't enjoy playing the way they wanted to play, so I formed a separate group of like minded individuals" is healthy and mature, and totally what we should all be doing and encouraging. "Those guys are weird, and should be shamed for it" not so much. If they want to wait for everyone to show up and roll dice to do parings... let them. If they want to have beers and get drunk while playing... let them. If they want to play nothing but CID... let them. If they want to play games and go to a strip bar afterwards... Firetrucking let them! Nobody is forcing anyone to engage with anybody else, but if we don't leave behind this victim mentality of "my game was ruined because of X group" then we will forever surrender our hobby to external factors. Firetruck that. Has to go both ways there bud... I was literally told I couldn't play the new guy "because I didn't roll for it". We got snubbed for a while because WE SHOWED UP EARLY AND PLAYED BY OURSELVES! I watched someone new get HARASSED THAT THEY ONLY HAD 50 POINTS TO PLAY BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THEY OWNED!!! And I was told by other people who USED to play that these guys had done this to every group in the city, and what was left was the ones that enjoyed it that way. I mean say what you will, but their complete devotion to the "HARD CORE TOURNAMENT ONLY YARRR HOW DARE YOU PLAY ANYTHING ELSE" was LITERALLY KILLING THE GAME! I know of another meta that's not too far away that's having a similar problem because they're going about it THE EXACT SAME WAY!!! Meanwhile the healthy groups I've mentioned are staying strong and are actually the ones hosting a lot of the tournaments around here. You may not like it... but "Extreme Roller" AKA "Only Steamroller tournament all the time every time with no exceptions or else havok ensues" mentality DOES NOT WORK. It's bad for any game, and it's bad for this game. If that's how you like to play (and I'm not trying to attack you, I'm passionate because of personal experience) might I suggest toning it down a bit? Maybe invite people to play off the normal game night at home or at a store that will let you? Just don't do it on the dedicated night where at any given time someone new might want to learn, or be coming for their first time, and don't immediately get turned off and never show up again (again I saw this happen minimum 5 times). Fewer capital letters, more paragraph breaks would make this easier to read. The problem with the people you describe is not the way they play Warmachine. It's the way they treat other people who don't want to play Warmachine in that style. Like Ganso said, judging them based on how they want to play is incorrect. Frankly, the way you describe their game night protocol sounds mostly excellent to me. That said, if they have in fact bullied and harassed players who did not want to handle their game night in that manner, we all obviously think that behavior should be corrected. There's no "right" way to play Warmachine, only what is right for you.
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Post by Charistoph on Jul 4, 2019 17:15:45 GMT
Has to go both ways there bud... I was literally told I couldn't play the new guy "because I didn't roll for it". We got snubbed for a while because WE SHOWED UP EARLY AND PLAYED BY OURSELVES! I watched someone new get HARASSED THAT THEY ONLY HAD 50 POINTS TO PLAY BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THEY OWNED!!! And I was told by other people who USED to play that these guys had done this to every group in the city, and what was left was the ones that enjoyed it that way. I mean say what you will, but their complete devotion to the "HARD CORE TOURNAMENT ONLY YARRR HOW DARE YOU PLAY ANYTHING ELSE" was LITERALLY KILLING THE GAME! I know of another meta that's not too far away that's having a similar problem because they're going about it THE EXACT SAME WAY!!! Meanwhile the healthy groups I've mentioned are staying strong and are actually the ones hosting a lot of the tournaments around here. You may not like it... but "Extreme Roller" AKA "Only Steamroller tournament all the time every time with no exceptions or else havok ensues" mentality DOES NOT WORK. It's bad for any game, and it's bad for this game. If that's how you like to play (and I'm not trying to attack you, I'm passionate because of personal experience) might I suggest toning it down a bit? Maybe invite people to play off the normal game night at home or at a store that will let you? Just don't do it on the dedicated night where at any given time someone new might want to learn, or be coming for their first time, and don't immediately get turned off and never show up again (again I saw this happen minimum 5 times). Fewer capital letters, more paragraph breaks would make this easier to read. The problem with the people you describe is not the way they play Warmachine. It's the way they treat other people who don't want to play Warmachine in that style. Like Ganso said, judging them based on how they want to play is incorrect. Frankly, the way you describe their game night protocol sounds mostly excellent to me. That said, if they have in fact bullied and harassed players who did not want to handle their game night in that manner, we all obviously think that behavior should be corrected. There's no "right" way to play Warmachine, only what is right for you. Considering that we have only been addressing how they treat other people, aka bullying or completely dismissive if they don't play Steamroller 100% of the time, I don't see the point of your post. The fact that they want to play Steamroller is not the problem. The problem occurs when their attitudes develop in to a caustic environment which drives people away. Steamroller just happens to be their focus, and they are taking it to a toxic extreme (hence, "extremeroller" as a title).
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Jul 6, 2019 5:50:37 GMT
Fewer capital letters, more paragraph breaks would make this easier to read. The problem with the people you describe is not the way they play Warmachine. It's the way they treat other people who don't want to play Warmachine in that style. Like Ganso said, judging them based on how they want to play is incorrect. Frankly, the way you describe their game night protocol sounds mostly excellent to me. That said, if they have in fact bullied and harassed players who did not want to handle their game night in that manner, we all obviously think that behavior should be corrected. There's no "right" way to play Warmachine, only what is right for you. Considering that we have only been addressing how they treat other people, aka bullying or completely dismissive if they don't play Steamroller 100% of the time, I don't see the point of your post. The fact that they want to play Steamroller is not the problem. The problem occurs when their attitudes develop in to a caustic environment which drives people away. Steamroller just happens to be their focus, and they are taking it to a toxic extreme (hence, "extremeroller" as a title). I just re-read your posts, and that's simply incorrect. You were complaining about how these "extreme rollers" played the game, and how it didn't fit with your "extreme casual" mindset. Some of us saw fit to point out that there's nothing wrong with different approaches to playing the game. If you "don't see the point of [my] post," I really don't know what to say to you, but it makes it abundantly clear that you are only interested in ranting, not in having a conversation. So I'll leave you to it. Rant away, sir. =)
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