gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Jun 16, 2019 1:36:41 GMT
Sosa the thread title...how evil are infernals?
My conclusion: not very.
Why? Let’s looks at what infernals are: parasites.
They need a constant stream of souls in order to even have any power in Caen. Therefore, in the long run, a stable supply of souls is a necessity.
They’re lost and broken souls anyway, the outcasts and downtrodden. At least the infernals give them a purpose.
Now the old witch decided to scream “ infernals!” And used it as carte Blanche. Perhaps the only good thing menoth did was seal them away.
Flame in the darkness? Witch hunters and zealots. How many innocent have died at their hands to stop “infernalism”?
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bacon
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134 
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Post by bacon on Jun 16, 2019 3:25:40 GMT
I mean they are creatures that barter in the immortal souls of others, often against their will, and robbing them of whatever afterlife they should have had. It might not seem like a big issue to you until they come for you and steal your chance at seeing your loved ones and sever your connection to your god forever.
Soul manipulation that isn't like how morrowan or protectorate do it; channeling souls straight to their afterlife, or like skorne (ironically enough), where it is to protect them from a fate even worse than death, is the ultimate taboo.
IIRC the witch hunters are part of the morrowan church and I have a very hard time believing that they or the kingdoms that the church is in would tolerate witchhunters wandering executing people without evidence. Even assuming witchunters can get away with it there is a world of difference between someone who takes the life of an innocent versus someone who takes their life and their soul
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Post by jagius021 on Jun 16, 2019 4:19:37 GMT
In fantasy lore, extinguishing an immortal soul is infinitely worse than extinguishing a life. And extinguishing a life is still pretty bad. That's why cryx is so bad too, they feed on souls in a lot of ways. And an enemy that wants 1/3 of all souls is seeking to do some pretty bad shit. So yeah, pretty evil.
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 16, 2019 5:09:40 GMT
Even with the Cryxians, at least the souls eventually go to Urcaen. They go traumatized and wrung of energy and don't end up where they're supposed to go. but with the Infernals the souls leave the natural cycle and go somewhere else. Somewhere 'other'.
Now the Infernals may not be doing this out of malice. Its not like they're trying to cause pain and suffering. As far as they're concerned, they're just bartering with some extra-dimensional beings for valuable material. They're businessmen, who enforce their contracts with vigor. Given their 'other' nature, the Infernals could be forgiven for doing what they do.
Infernalists on the other hand, they are definitely evil. They sell the souls of innocent people to further their own power. They do it knowing exactly what harm they are causing. And they do it anyway. They are deliberately evil.
Thamar is also a bit evil for having bartered away souls that did not belong to her in exchange for magic for humanity.
In real life, Witch Hunters and Inqusitor's did some bad stuff on flimsy justification. but in a world where magic exists, you can verify someone's guilt fairly easily. If someone is literally raising the dead or stealing souls, and given that you can actually see them doing that, then its totally justified to hunt for people. Witch Hunts aren't evil if you actually find a witch.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 16, 2019 5:31:59 GMT
Thamar is also a bit evil for having bartered away souls that did not belong to her in exchange for magic for humanity. Did she ever actually intend to pay up, or was she just pulling a fast one on the Infernals since she didn't think they actually had the means to collect? Perhaps she knew they had the means to collect but it still worked in her favour, as it allowed her time to build up her own power by expanding her influence, and even if the Infernals grab a bunch of souls right now it's still a net gain for her? Or perhaps she believed that even if the Infernals came to collect that it would still be a net gain for humanity overall?
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 16, 2019 5:54:18 GMT
In fantasy lore, extinguishing an immortal soul is infinitely worse than extinguishing a life. And extinguishing a life is still pretty bad. That's why cryx is so bad too, they feed on souls in a lot of ways. And an enemy that wants 1/3 of all souls is seeking to do some pretty bad shit. So yeah, pretty evil.
The odd part is that animals kill all the time, yet most are not considered evil. If a wolf pulls down Bambi's mom, the wolves are only evil when presented with certain music and lighting options. But if you see those wolves taking the meat back to pups and provide some basic cute music, they become the heroes.
Infernals are predators, aren't they? I'm sure that to a sheep, all wolves seem evil, but from another predator's view, all they see is the wolf is fighting for survival. Infernals could be considered as another predator of souls from the Wyrm's or Toruk's perspective.
Thamar is also a bit evil for having bartered away souls that did not belong to her in exchange for magic for humanity. Did she ever actually intend to pay up, or was she just pulling a fast one on the Infernals since she didn't think they actually had the means to collect? Perhaps she knew they had the means to collect but it still worked in her favour, as it allowed her time to build up her own power by expanding her influence, and even if the Infernals grab a bunch of souls right now it's still a net gain for her? Or perhaps she believed that even if the Infernals came to collect that it would still be a net gain for humanity overall?
Maybe she saw the Infernal's coming as inevitable, so sought a way to improve humanity's to deal with them. To continue the metaphor from above, humanity was sheep, but Thamar brought them a new form of horns with the Menites would not have been inspired to develop and the Circle and Trollbloods wouldn't have developed their Jack-fighting creatures as much as they would have without the Warjacks to face.
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Jun 16, 2019 9:00:27 GMT
Ok so they’re that alien... they might be fairly unpredictable.
It’s only human souls, too?
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Post by challenger on Jun 16, 2019 12:23:24 GMT
Infernals are basically just Lawful Evil
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gupp
Junior Strategist
Posts: 134
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Post by gupp on Jun 16, 2019 19:47:36 GMT
Is there a dream world in the iron kingdoms? Some of the infernals like screamers seem more fit in a dream than anywhere else, perhaps that’s where the souls are going?
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Post by mydnight on Jun 17, 2019 0:13:54 GMT
Without underlying what the baseline definition of evil is, anything can be rationalised to be non-evil. In the iron kingdoms it seems 'life' is 'good' hence anything that destroys life is bad. Infernals destroy life eternally, hence worst evil possible.
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 17, 2019 1:26:23 GMT
Without underlying what the baseline definition of evil is, anything can be rationalised to be non-evil. In the iron kingdoms it seems 'life' is 'good' hence anything that destroys life is bad. Infernals destroy life eternally, hence worst evil possible.
With that point that destroying life is bad, everything is evil except that which breaks down that which is already dead. A tree would be more evil than a fly, as the tree's shade would block life-giving life from other plants, while the fly eats crap. A sheep or cow destroys plant life to give sustenance to itself.
On the other hand, the Skorne don't see themselves as evil, yet they practice rampant conquest, slavery, and torture in order to avoid the Void. To anyone who is being tortured or enslaved, they would be seen as evil.
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Post by mydnight on Jun 17, 2019 10:22:24 GMT
Without underlying what the baseline definition of evil is, anything can be rationalised to be non-evil. In the iron kingdoms it seems 'life' is 'good' hence anything that destroys life is bad. Infernals destroy life eternally, hence worst evil possible.
With that point that destroying life is bad, everything is evil except that which breaks down that which is already dead. A tree would be more evil than a fly, as the tree's shade would block life-giving life from other plants, while the fly eats crap. A sheep or cow destroys plant life to give sustenance to itself. Morality applies only to agents that can make choices, so not sure if the analogies above are relevant. However yes even a simple statement that 'life is good' will be fraught with many difficult and unclear scenarios. |
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Post by borderprince on Jun 17, 2019 12:28:55 GMT
Even with the Cryxians, at least the souls eventually go to Urcaen. They go traumatized and wrung of energy and don't end up where they're supposed to go. but with the Infernals the souls leave the natural cycle and go somewhere else. Somewhere 'other'. My understanding was that outside of the domains of particular gods, Urcaen is not a nice place. Souls there get hunted by the Devourer and his servants (or end up with the Grymkin). And a weakened soul is easy prey. Going somewhere 'other' may be better or worse than being hunted and devoured forever.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Jun 17, 2019 14:13:52 GMT
Infernals are basically just Lawful Evil Pretty much what I was thinking. They made a deal with humans. The humans agreed to the terms in order to be free. Not their fault the new humans are getting all bent out of shape about it. |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 17, 2019 14:44:18 GMT
Infernals are basically just Lawful Evil Pretty much what I was thinking. They made a deal with humans. The humans agreed to the terms in order to be free. Not their fault the new humans are getting all bent out of shape about it. I mean, they didn't make a deal with humans, they made a deal with a deity, for something that the deity did not own and therefore had no right to sell. Yes, they got cheated, but that don't give them the right to run around stealing stuff that ain't theirs. |
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