|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Jun 11, 2019 13:53:26 GMT
As a preface, this is another one of my odd ideas that has precisely zero testing. But I'm going to keep throwing these sort of things out there until I'm actually able to play regularly again, using you guys as sounding boards for things I would normally test on the table. And for some background, when I say Stalingrad I mean the Irusk2 WGK list that Chris Davies won Wintercon and the WTC with last year. It involves 40+ Winter Guard, 9 Rockets, Alexia1, Joe, and some field guns. The idea is that your opponent just can't get through that much stuff easily leading to clock pressure. With Alexia1 recurring things it adds another layer of PITA to chew though. Your turns can be quick because you can just go 'massive CRA, done'. So! What new idiocy have I been contemplating? In the recent thread grumbling about the Black Dragons, michael said that what Legion needed to be good was the ability to take 3 units of IFP with CA, plus Uhlans, and solos. In Mk2 this was easier because 50pts of troops then is equivalent (roughly) to 100 points of troops now, which you obviously will struggle to fit in a 75pt list. Also, I think Claws of the Dragon had a point reduction? But all is not lost! In Mk3, if you'll allow yourself some wiggle room on the 'solos' front, it's still achievable. Three units of IFP and full Uhlans is 65 points, and the freebies allow you to take all three CAs. That leaves you 10 points for solos, which is enough for any two if you exclude Markov. But how important are the solos? Countercharge is quite cool, but Markov and two Kovniks is literally the cost of another unit. (Yes, even if the Kovniks are free; if you don't take them the CAs become free, so they have a 4pt opportunity cost). Is 3 countercharges worth 10 models? Of course this is a little disingenuous; the solos bring other abilities to the table. Markov's got Tactician, the Kovniks have NSotJ and Precision Strike, Sofia has a handy vet leader and shield guard. But to bring this back to Stalingrad; Irusk2 can basically replace Markov and the Kovniks. So can we make a Stalingrad-style list using Iron Fangs instead of Winter Guard? At maximum saturation you can have 56 Iron Fang Pikemen with no-KD tough, immunity to blast, and Tactician. Admittedly three of them would be useless standard bearers. Iron Fangs have the advantage of hitting really, really hard, with Irusk to buff them; an average charge with BL does almost as much damage as the aforementioned 10-man CRA, 27 vs 29. You pay for this by having absolutely no shooting, of course. But a full-bore list like that might struggle in scenario with no solos. And the fact that Legion can't take Alexia1 due to being the only theme force with a merc units restriction means that you're missing some recursion. But could we use Alexia2 to cover here? Less actual mook-recursion, but more Thralls. A basic list could look something like: Khador Army - 71 / 75 points [Theme] Legion of Steel [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Destroyer [14] - Juggernaut [13] Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire [7] Kapitan Sofya Skirova [0(5)] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [0(4)] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [0(4)] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] With 4 floating points for things like a Kovnik, Adjunct, the last CA, upgrading to Black Dragons (lol). You'd have to drop Alexia or Sofia to get the Uhlans in, annoyingly. Or maybe just have 2 CAs. Thoughts? Or at least thoughts that aren't 'just run Wolves'... I don't have the models for Wolves, I do have the models for this. |
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jun 11, 2019 14:26:07 GMT
I think the key to Claws of the Dragon was, at least for me, 3 full units of mixed flavors of IFP + UA, plus full Uhlans, plus Markov for Tactician (yes, it was only Practiced Maneuvers for the Uhlans back then, but...), PLUS wiggle room for roughly three or four other solos. Today, that would look something like the following. We just can’t quite pull it off.
Theme: Legion of Steel
3 / 3 Free Cards 86 / 75 Army Over Friendly Limit
<! OVER POINT LIMIT !>
Uhlan Kovnik Markov - PC: 7
Iron Fang Kovnik - PC: 0
Saxon Orrik - PC: 4
Ragman - PC: 4
Black Dragons - Leader & 9 Grunts: 17
- Black Dragon Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
Iron Fang Pikemen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
- Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
Iron Fang Pikemen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
- Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4
Iron Fang Uhlans - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20
|
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Jun 11, 2019 14:37:17 GMT
Run Irusk2 so you don't need Markov, drop Saxon because everything has relentless charge, and done. Amazing how many models you can get if you don't waste points on support!  |
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jun 11, 2019 15:39:03 GMT
Run Irusk2 so you don't need Markov, drop Saxon because everything has relentless charge, and done. Amazing how many models you can get if you don't waste points on support! I would humbly submit that a theme force that only (potentially) works in a single specific configuration is not a good theme force. But, something, something, etc. |
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Jun 11, 2019 15:59:22 GMT
Hmmmmm..........
I think the key difference is that to get the tough bubble you have keep them withing the 10 inch bubble. Davies' stalingrad (a list I really want to play for giggles) with joe can be spread out significantly more. Your IFP threatn on the charge 11 inches. His with their CRAs threaten a minimum of 14. With the mini-feat he has significantly more Volume of Attacks. The Rockets are a potent piece of the puzzle, typically requiring your opponent to close or risk starting to lose pieces to multiple rocket shots and Rifle CRAs (if the Rifle variant). If a variant with a fun carriage more shooting fun. And it does have, with CRA, the possibility of marching up the field and getting in range and then ending a game right then and there. POw 12 CRAs even if at low range can bite.
Even in melee, with Bears strength, you are giving up only a point of P+S over the fangs.
Finally, by bringing Alexia1 you get to recycle those dead grunts into MORE things to kill.
So while fun I don't think it is NEARLY as good as Stalingrad. LoS is in a tough place right now - - we really need them to go through CID with a dedicated pike caster (Kozlov 2?) that can buff them in a way that DOESN'T"T translate to MoW Shocks. An LoS-centric caster with some additional solos would provide for that.
|
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jun 11, 2019 16:34:42 GMT
Just for the record: I’m not saying this will be bad. I would have to play it and see how it turns out.
I just get the feeling that it is lacking flexibility, that’s all.
|
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Jun 11, 2019 16:48:07 GMT
Just for the record: I’m not saying this will be bad. I would have to play it and see how it turns out. I just get the feeling that it is lacking flexibility, that’s all. No worries, I got what you meant. And yeah, it is pretty inflexible. But if it works, it works. If there was a theme that was terrible in all but one configuration, that configuration would still be a valid list. Not to imply that this is 'the one'! I'm just curious to hear people's thoughts. |
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Jun 11, 2019 17:10:48 GMT
Hmmmmm.......... I think the key difference is that to get the tough bubble you have keep them withing the 10 inch bubble. Davies' stalingrad (a list I really want to play for giggles) with joe can be spread out significantly more. Your IFP threatn on the charge 11 inches. His with their CRAs threaten a minimum of 14. With the mini-feat he has significantly more Volume of Attacks. The Rockets are a potent piece of the puzzle, typically requiring your opponent to close or risk starting to lose pieces to multiple rocket shots and Rifle CRAs (if the Rifle variant). If a variant with a fun carriage more shooting fun. And it does have, with CRA, the possibility of marching up the field and getting in range and then ending a game right then and there. POw 12 CRAs even if at low range can bite. Even in melee, with Bears strength, you are giving up only a point of P+S over the fangs. Finally, by bringing Alexia1 you get to recycle those dead grunts into MORE things to kill. So while fun I don't think it is NEARLY as good as Stalingrad. LoS is in a tough place right now - - we really need them to go through CID with a dedicated pike caster (Kozlov 2?) that can buff them in a way that DOESN'T"T translate to MoW Shocks. An LoS-centric caster with some additional solos would provide for that. I wasn't aware that there were variants with the Gun Carriage and Rifles! I thought the whole point was quantity became a quality? And you're right on Alexia1; I'd have taken her if I could. Just have to settle for 3 weaponmasters a turn... WGI, with Bear's Strength, are giving up 2 points of MAT, a point of P+S, and an inch and a half of threat compared to completely unbuffed Iron Fangs. Hell, it can be three points if Sofia's around. The MAT difference alone means the WGI will miss 20-30% more often, which has a huge impact on damage. The sheer amount of damage the IFP can do, plus everyone and their mother packing half a dozen shield guards, is why I was interested to try this out. But it's a good point about the variety of threat ranges. And whilst I agree that LoS isn't in a good spot and could do with a bit of love, I completely and utterly disagree with the last point. Releasing overtuned casters and powerful free solos is what's causing most of the meta-defining shenanigans right now. |
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Jun 11, 2019 18:35:22 GMT
Hmmmmm.......... I think the key difference is that to get the tough bubble you have keep them withing the 10 inch bubble. Davies' stalingrad (a list I really want to play for giggles) with joe can be spread out significantly more. Your IFP threatn on the charge 11 inches. His with their CRAs threaten a minimum of 14. With the mini-feat he has significantly more Volume of Attacks. The Rockets are a potent piece of the puzzle, typically requiring your opponent to close or risk starting to lose pieces to multiple rocket shots and Rifle CRAs (if the Rifle variant). If a variant with a fun carriage more shooting fun. And it does have, with CRA, the possibility of marching up the field and getting in range and then ending a game right then and there. POw 12 CRAs even if at low range can bite. Even in melee, with Bears strength, you are giving up only a point of P+S over the fangs. Finally, by bringing Alexia1 you get to recycle those dead grunts into MORE things to kill. So while fun I don't think it is NEARLY as good as Stalingrad. LoS is in a tough place right now - - we really need them to go through CID with a dedicated pike caster (Kozlov 2?) that can buff them in a way that DOESN'T"T translate to MoW Shocks. An LoS-centric caster with some additional solos would provide for that. I wasn't aware that there were variants with the Gun Carriage and Rifles! I thought the whole point was quantity became a quality? And you're right on Alexia1; I'd have taken her if I could. Just have to settle for 3 weaponmasters a turn... WGI, with Bear's Strength, are giving up 2 points of MAT, a point of P+S, and an inch and a half of threat compared to completely unbuffed Iron Fangs. Hell, it can be three points if Sofia's around. The MAT difference alone means the WGI will miss 20-30% more often, which has a huge impact on damage. The sheer amount of damage the IFP can do, plus everyone and their mother packing half a dozen shield guards, is why I was interested to try this out. But it's a good point about the variety of threat ranges. And whilst I agree that LoS isn't in a good spot and could do with a bit of love, I completely and utterly disagree with the last point. Releasing overtuned casters and powerful free solos is what's causing most of the meta-defining shenanigans right now. I think you could build an IFP caster/theme that wouldn't be broken......
1) A "joe like" solo that could sign tough, pathfinder, and one other speech 2) A retuning of the Bears to make them actually scary again or downgrade the cost to reflect their value. Yes, flank is great with double strike. But it is a bit of skornergy that only number 2 and 3 are getting that. Now if the Bears had flank IPF/Black Dragons..... 3) A caster who had leadership Cadre Fangs/Black Dragons. You could EITHER go defense (so thing like Set Defense or Blur) OR range resiliancing (Force Aura, Decel). You could give him desperate pace Fangs as a star action AKA Sorscha2. Perhaps something like Field Marshal Precision strike to further have fun with that theme. You could give him a feat that allowed autohitting and a second swing but avoid providing any sort of P+S boost.
As noted - the absolute key is NOT overtunning the AC at the same time (or else everyone will simply reach for those instead and include the dude). We want to still allow him to dabble elsewhere (though S3 really doesn't - nor Iona) but providing a caster to tune up the theme makes a lot of sense and would not NECESSARILY be broken.
What we are going to try to avoid is things that would make the Shocks over the top.
|
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Jun 11, 2019 21:24:24 GMT
There's enough no-knockdown tough in the game already. I'd rather they reworked the whole tough mechanic than release more stuff with it.
That aside, wishlisting a hypothetical future CID isn't tremendously helpful in the near term. I'd much rather try to use the stuff I have now than wait for an undisclosed amount of time in the hope that things might get better.
Hence topics on odd things like LegoS, and Sorscha2. (Harkevich remains my nemesis in this regard. Can't find an angle)
|
|
|
|
Post by cplmustard on Jun 11, 2019 21:40:11 GMT
Just for the record: I’m not saying this will be bad. I would have to play it and see how it turns out. I just get the feeling that it is lacking flexibility, that’s all. No worries, I got what you meant. And yeah, it is pretty inflexible. But if it works, it works. If there was a theme that was terrible in all but one configuration, that configuration would still be a valid list. Not to imply that this is 'the one'! I'm just curious to hear people's thoughts. Grim1 4 Huge Bases in Kriel Company says hi! Oh to contribute to the thread a bit more: conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0y797p7pnjjyfSbP7H7I7H7I7H7IKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Legion of Steel [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Destroyer [14] - Destroyer [14] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Kapitan Sofya Skirova [0(5)] Black Dragons (max) [17] - Black Dragon Officer & Standard [0(4)] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4] We can swap the black dragons for uhlans for taste but this seems like it could be pretty oppressive for certain lists, especially with good use of the feat/artifice. |
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Jun 12, 2019 0:24:48 GMT
If you really want to play LoS what about Kozlov who, I think with the Adjunct, is now better. Hot swaping tactical supremacy makes you fast. Fury is always great. Feat and minifeat pushes charging Black dragons to a respectable ARM 19. I am just not convinced that putting that many Iron Fangs in the relatively small Irusk 2 coommand bubble without any real defensive tech for Irusk2 himself (other than the artifice) will work. It is just too easy to spray them down and while cheap they are not dirt Winterguard cheap.
I
|
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Jun 12, 2019 5:27:20 GMT
Harkevich remains my nemesis in this regard. Can't find an angle Are you being obtuse or are Harkevich's problems that acute?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
For the LoS issue, swapping the idea from WGK to LoS won't work easily. Even aside from recursion, the WGK version has things that LoS will lack: ranged spot removal and a little control via ranged knockdown. Being predominantly ranged also means it has a little more control over setting the terms of the engagement.
LoS would need to work differently, probably focusing on getting ARM high to get models into combat, rather than cheap. Kozlov + 2 Black Dragons might be a reasonable call as the core of the list (Under feat + mini-feat + Tactical Supremacy: ARM 23 with an 11" shield wall move is good for board control). But it's going to work very differently to WGK lists. Not saying that LoS can't do lots of models (although my main ruminations with that theme are still Butcher1 + Double Uhlans and BG), but it needs to be thought about from the ground up rather than trying to translate from a very different theme.
|
|
|
|
Post by chickenslayer on Jun 12, 2019 14:29:14 GMT
So I actually did try and see if a Legion of Steel version of Stalingrad could work when I was shopping for lists last year leading up to the WTC and then earlier this year when the Steelhead CID first introduced buffs to Alexia 2. Irusk 2 at the helm to save points on Markov, maximise the number of pikemen and protect them with the Counter Charge theme benefit.
The list was much easier to pilot than the Winter Guard version because with Sofya and CMAT the Pikemen are absurdly accurate and the list as a whole responds well to Battle Lust and go nuts. It's main issue is that, well, it lacked the raw power the Winter Guard version does: Pikemen cost a lot more than Winter Guard and the WGK list has a lot of random unexpected extra flexibility. Like being able to Fire for Effect Sprays from WGI using Grapeshot. Plus Guns > Not Guns in most cases. It also has very similar weaknesses to models like Gerlak Slaughterborn or, these days, Mak 3 and whislt the Counter Charge helps a bunch with it and I think is the best part of the list, overall it doesn't come together as well
It also has to compete with similar builds in Wolves of Winter. Can get some other High IQ builds like 6 units of Reavers, 3 free units of Ternion, Alexia 2 and 2 Koldun Lords and a caster to run the mess. That caster can also be Irusk 2
Still Legion of Steel has its place I think. If you want to run it in this style this is my usual list. I think something like either this build or one that cuts either the Victor or Alexia 2 for the War Dog and a Kovnik for even more counter charge. It is to me the best part of the list and well worth preserving.
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Legion of Steel [Irusk 2] Supreme Kommandant Irusk [+27] - Victor [34] Alexia, Mistress of the Witchfire [7] Iron Fang Kovnik [0(4)] Kapitan Sofya Skirova [0(5)] Great Bears of the Gallowswood [9] Iron Fang Pikemen (min) [9] Iron Fang Pikemen (min) [9] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [0(4)] Iron Fang Pikemen (max) [15] - Iron Fang Pikemen Officer & Standard [4]
You can shave a lot of points by cutting the UA's on the small units, since I find they're only actually useful on a couple of units and in lists that try to get their armour high. But, lets be honest, no one really gives a sh*t about high armour on single wound models that don't have Vengeance. If you want to try though, something like Strakhov 2 could work better
|
|
