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Post by hocestbellum on May 31, 2019 12:54:03 GMT
Forward Kommander Sorscha got a very raw deal coming through from Mk2. She went from being our highest WJP caster to the lowest of the single models. She lost Freezing Grip, her Warjack bond, and her Elite Cadre. Iron Flesh changed from massive DEF boost to less-impressive ARM boost.
But I'm a very firm believer that anything can be good in the right circumstances! People mocked me for saying Sorscha1 was good a year ago, and look at her now; circumstances changed to make her an excellent choice.
Which got me to thinking about the neglected middle Sorscha. Are we approaching a point where she becomes viable? She's got three main things going for her: an ARM boost, an RFP mechanic, and a feat designed to wreck everything.
An ARM boost isn't too uncommon, but that doesn't mean it's bad. ARM23 Shocktroopers are great, and the advent of things like the Judicator mean that the Blast Immunity can be pretty relevant.
The feat itself is as good as it has ever been; a Juggernaut can destroy an Ironclad with just its initials, and has a pretty good chance of one-rounding a Judicator if fully loaded (33.2%, up to 75% with free charge). There seems to be an increasing trend towards putting some big targets in lists; CG, Menoth, Skorne, Ret and CoC are pretty much defined by their huge bases at the moment. Apart from Circle Orboros and Grymkin, that's more or less a list of the recent DiscountGamesTournaments placers. And of those two, Grymkin run beast-heavy.
On top of that is RFP, which is unfortunately only useful some of the time. That said, it seems to me that those times are popping up more and more often. No souls for High Reclaimer, Exalted, Clockwork Legions, 4Shade. No Reinforcements for Trenchers or Skarre3. No corpses for... whichever few things collect them from their own models. Alexia and the Death Knell?
Because of the way her spells and feat work, she doesn't really have to expose herself much until the feat turn, and then she has a 24" threat of getting things in the bubble.
I've only played her in somewhat odd circumstances recently; I wanted to show that you could still make a decent non-theme list, and used her to spank the living daylights out of the High Reclaimer. (I cannot emphasise how one-sided a fight in which he has no feat, no clouds, no souls and no blast damage is.)
Thoughts? I guess the theme to run her in is Armoured Corps, as it's self-sufficient, hard hitting, and has the troops to make use of both of her upkeeps. Plus, Strike Tankers + Feat are just delightful.
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Post by michael on May 31, 2019 13:01:24 GMT
Her big selling points last edition were advance -> feat -> retreat (with Cyclone) so her feat turn could safely dig deeper, and Freezing Grip, adding additional safety and control to her kit.
Something control-ish, like a “Wall of Ice” spell, could slot into her kit nicely. (Just tossing this out: “Wall of Ice — Place the wall template anywhere completely within this model’s CTRL range, blah blah blah. When a model without immunity: cold contacts a Wall of Ice, it becomes stationary for one round.”)
Also, Shatter Storm is dead weight as written. It really needs to be something more useful.
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Post by michael on May 31, 2019 13:09:47 GMT
Side thought: all that stuff above, and drop Shatter Storm for Sure Foot.
Consider.
Hmm.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 31, 2019 13:35:46 GMT
I mean, sure, all of those things would make her better. But I was more asking about how to apply the advantages she has, rather than what she would want from a CID.
(And also, given PP's patterns in the CID, they would likely swap Iron Flesh for Sure Foot.)
Given that she is probably spending 1 focus max on upkeeps and her feat means most jacks don't need more than 1 focus, I wonder if she could do well with three jacks to spend her WJP? As opposed to the solo Colossal that seems common at the moment.
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Post by borderprince on May 31, 2019 14:19:02 GMT
My view at the moment is that in some themes she is outshone by Butcher1 - he also has an ARM buff and a damage boosting feat. Sorscha2 also has a threat extended (boundless charge) and RFP. But in WGK and Jaws, Butcher1 can get Sorscha0 to give the threat extender (and crucially, without using his own Focus).
That said, there is more of a case to be made in themes where Sorscha0 isn't available. There, Sorscha2 brings something that Butcher1 really lacks, via Boundless Charge. So perhaps in Armored Corps? The difficulty there is that there are lots of good AC casters who buff damage. Many also have movement and/or ARM buffs (Sorscha3, for example). Sorscha2's selling points really have to be massive burst damage in one turn, rather than over time (compared to the Irusks, for example) and RFP tech. Personally, I tend to treat AC as a grindy list, so will prefer longer term damage buffs. RFP is lovely when you need it, but is it enough to merit making her part of the pair? Probably dependent on your meta and/or whether you want your AC list to be a quite shooty one. Her feat could be quite nasty with double Bombardiers + Tankers.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 31, 2019 15:32:22 GMT
Butcher and Sorscha's feat deal damage very differently, though. Butcher's makes everything hit harder, S2 makes things that already hit hard hit really hard. So on, say, Rifle Corps shooting an Ironclad B1 shines whereas S2 has little effect. But a Juggernaut charge attack hitting the same Ironclad? B1 does +6 damage max and +3.5 average, S2 does +19 max and +8 average.
It's those insane spikes that intrigue me. You're unlikely to one-shot a Battle Engine with a Strike Tanker, but the fact that it's even possible has to be worth something.
I don't feel like she needs an all-out shooty list, either. Just a few high-power shooters. Strike Tankers for sure, Destroyers just for the Boosted shots? I don't think the Bombardiers represent a particularly good return on investment though. P14 without a boost isn't great against armour, and I don't think they've got the shot volume to use CRA effectively.
Because she's a damage multiplier more than a power-booster, it seems like she'd get a lot out of high-power charge attacks, too. Things like the Drakhun get into 'one-shot a heavy' territory (26 damage to an Ironclad, for example).
It's got me thinking about it enough that I'm going to give her some table time.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 31, 2019 16:58:49 GMT
The piece that I'm struggling with is on what planet is Sorscha 2 somehow better than Sorscha 3 piloting Armored Korp. Seriously. Sorscha 3 gets her force up field with the feat, and then every turn is acting as both a hit and damage fixer for all her jacks. She can freeze stuff which synergizes with Demo Corp. Her personal assassination threat is just so much better since it's not a crit effect.
I'm not seeing it.
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Post by sand20go on May 31, 2019 17:56:07 GMT
I need to get her on the table. I think you START with Strike Tankers and likely the Seige Chariot. Being able to do Dice +2 doubled AND get a slam (which also would be x2 over) And then you DEFINATELY want (just for laughes) the new Steelhead Cannon and Gunner. Brutal damage Pow 14 _AND_ opportunity to get seige weapons. AVERAGE dice takes out 18 boxes on a Railless (Take THAT Juris!!!) a NOT unheard spike of 20 would take out THIRTY boxes on that damm thing. All for a 9 point module. So something like this..... conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0T6YkVkWnj8pl5l4l4l3l3nw7QgdnskQKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Armored Corps [Sorscha 2] Forward Kommander Sorscha [+27] - Beast 09 [18] - Juggernaut [13] - Greylord Adjunct [4] Man-O-War Drakhun [9] Man-O-War Kovnik [4] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Strike Tanker [5] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Man-O-War Suppression Tanker [0(6)] Steelhead Gunner [3] Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16] - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer [4] Steelhead Cannon Crew [6] Man-O-War Siege Chariot [15] IF goes on the shocks and they go on one flank. Chariot on the other along with support from the Jugger. S2 herself central and plays aggressively with Beast there to help with the shield guard/Hyper deterrence. Drakhun goes where it is best used - understanding it also provides some VERY nice spikes under feat. Steelhead package also central to go huge base hunting. 2 Tankers each side. Feels strong'ish. Might try it for fun this weekend (no date night sadly Saturday - damm youth sports)
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Post by sand20go on May 31, 2019 17:56:43 GMT
The piece that I'm struggling with is on what planet is Sorscha 2 somehow better than Sorscha 3 piloting Armored Korp. Seriously. Sorscha 3 gets her force up field with the feat, and then every turn is acting as both a hit and damage fixer for all her jacks. She can freeze stuff which synergizes with Demo Corp. Her personal assassination threat is just so much better since it's not a crit effect. I'm not seeing it.
See above. You can hit a railless under feat with a 9 point package and take out half its boxes.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 31, 2019 18:43:37 GMT
A DEF buff without the old school Bob and Weave is not something that would bring her back into the limelight. The thing that made her so powerful was the Death Star, a cheap DEF 17 unit that could blow away huge chunks of the opposition with SPD 7 SP8 boosted Attacks. Her feat is another thing though, most people see it as a straight Damage fixer, but if you're not breaking ARM 21 or higher in the first place, then it's pretty bad. I mean, sure, all of those things would make her better. But I was more asking about how to apply the advantages she has, rather than what she would want from a CID. That's the thing though, I don't believe she has any advantage over any other caster. Frankly, I think that any infantry army that Sorscha_2 can run, Irusk_1 can probably do it better. Even Shatter proved to be more a gimmick than a legit tactic in the heyday of Ghost Fleet and High Reclaimer. I think I would probably just run a battlegroup heavy-ish Wolves List to get those weapon masters in there for some sweet spike damage. Not to mention that the ARM debuff from Brittle Frost directly helps her in Feat turn. Relying on massive CRAs and Feat is not viable against the most popular armies that are bringing huge bases because they can trivially include Shield Guards. It's harder to redirect melee attacks
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on May 31, 2019 18:46:21 GMT
The piece that I'm struggling with is on what planet is Sorscha 2 somehow better than Sorscha 3 piloting Armored Korp. Seriously. Sorscha 3 gets her force up field with the feat, and then every turn is acting as both a hit and damage fixer for all her jacks. She can freeze stuff which synergizes with Demo Corp. Her personal assassination threat is just so much better since it's not a crit effect. I'm not seeing it. See above. You can hit a railless under feat with a 9 point package and take out half its boxes.
Aren't they just going to shunt them away with one of their 4+ Shield Guards?
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Post by michael on May 31, 2019 19:58:54 GMT
See above. You can hit a railless under feat with a 9 point package and take out half its boxes.
Aren't they just going to shunt them away with one of their 4+ Shield Guards? Most likely. We just had that discussion in another thread like two days ago!
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Post by sand20go on May 31, 2019 21:57:13 GMT
Aren't they just going to shunt them away with one of their 4+ Shield Guards? Most likely. We just had that discussion in another thread like two days ago! It depends. Juris, for example, brings NO shield guards in his double railless.... conflictchamber.com/?cf201b_-12l8ltlblulF7jlHlH7kfClElklkiBlDldldCrucible Guard Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Magnum Opus [Syvestro 1] Aurum Adeptus Syvestro [+28] - Liberator [10] - Suppressor [13] - Toro [13] - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc [0(5)] Anastasia di Bray [3] Crucible Guard Mechanik [2] Crucible Guard Mechanik [2] Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist [4] Hutchuk, Ogrun Bounty Hunter [0(6)] Trancer [3] Dragon's Breath Rocket [0(5)] Dragon's Breath Rocket [5] Steelhead Halberdiers (max) [11] - Doctor Alejandro Mosby [4] Railless Interceptor [16] Railless Interceptor [16]
I am not sure EE brings one as well... In His Locke list it is, if I recall.....(fuzzier on that one) conflictchamber.com/?cf201b_-11lqlululvlclFlHlHlnlolElClklkCrucible Guard Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Prima Materia [Locke 1] Aurum Lucanum Athanor Locke [+29] - Toro [13] - Toro [13] - Vindicator [15] - Vulcan [35] - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc [0(5)] Crucible Guard Mechanik [2] Crucible Guard Mechanik [2] Prospero [0(5)] - Vanguard [10] Trancer [3] Combat Alchemists [0(7)] Dragon's Breath Rocket [5] Dragon's Breath Rocket [5]
So one shield guard - and often hanging a bit further back because losing Prospo sucks. It PROBABLY supports Vulcan.
But again - depending on what you have to counter I am not sure that having Vanguard's slammed all over the place or shot off the table is a great outcome. Better than losing the vulcan (for sure). And he can't shield guard if knocked down or slammed out of 3 inches.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 1, 2019 10:38:20 GMT
... And then you DEFINATELY want (just for laughes) the new Steelhead Cannon and Gunner. Brutal damage Pow 14 _AND_ opportunity to get seige weapons. AVERAGE dice takes out 18 boxes on a Railless (Take THAT Juris!!!) a NOT unheard spike of 20 would take out THIRTY boxes on that damm thing. All for a 9 point module. It's been so long, I'd forgotten that her feat damage doesn't require it to be caused by friendly faction models.
You see it's the spikes that put me off. I prefer more predictable and reliable - let's you (in the sense of "me", because I obviously speak for everyone) plan better.
One of the interesting things about the board at the moment is that we've been discussing heavy damage dealing casters quite a bit (Karchev, Sorscha2). That's never really be a weak spot in Khador though. There are plenty of options for enhancing damage, albeit in different ways.
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Post by michael on Jun 1, 2019 16:10:44 GMT
I’m getting almost... almost...tempted to take Sorscha2 with my Wolves of Winter to Lock & Load. We’ll see.
(I still think Shatter Storm is a dead spell.)
The more I think about it, the more I think S2 in Wolves will be a terribad or maybe horrigreat game of “spike harder.” We’ll see!
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