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Post by dogganmguest on Jun 7, 2019 23:50:54 GMT
In fairness, when I was new some people in my first club would play lower point games. But they would complain every time that I should upgrade to 50pts (mk2) ASAP. Once people knew I was capable of playing 50, they would make their excuses about smaller games. Playing games online, it has been extremely rare to see anyone accept a low point game unless both players were new.
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Post by michael on Jun 8, 2019 13:09:57 GMT
You can be a bag of dicks about it if you like, but that's not a prophecy, that's direct experience. You can be a bag of dicks about it if you like, but that's not a prophecy, that's direct experience. Pretty much. OR: "I'm pretty new to the game, and I only have a small collection, can we play something small?" "We only play Steamroller here. Build up your army and come back later." OR: "I'm pretty new to the game, and I only have a small collection, can we play something small?" "The game is focused on Steamroller, so let's get you playing that right now."
OR: "I'm pretty new to the game, and I only have a small collection, can we play something small?" "Sorry, I already scheduled a Steamroller game with another person, sorry."
Our experiences are seemingly so divergent that there is no middle ground. If you are either unwilling or unable to effect the change you desire, then I honestly can’t help you. I have never, ever encountered players who, if asked nicely, would not accommodate their opponent and play an enjoyable game. Schedule a “50 points only” day at your local shop. Run a small-point-value escalating league. Do something. Stop bemoaning your problems on a middle-of-nowhere message board and stop demanding that somebody else fix what you perceive to be a problem. You have the capability to fix this yourself. Exercise it or stop complaining. And if the people you game with truly, genuinely absolutely refuse to accommodate any requests for something different, then go find other people to play with. |
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 8, 2019 14:47:28 GMT
Michael, there's a thin line between disagreeing with someone and insulting them. Let's make sure not to cross it. 
That goes for everyone else in here too.
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 8, 2019 17:21:08 GMT
Our experiences are seemingly so divergent that there is no middle ground. If you are either unwilling or unable to effect the change you desire, then I honestly can’t help you. I have never, ever encountered players who, if asked nicely, would not accommodate their opponent and play an enjoyable game. Schedule a “50 points only” day at your local shop. Run a small-point-value escalating league. Do something. Stop bemoaning your problems on a middle-of-nowhere message board and stop demanding that somebody else fix what you perceive to be a problem. You have the capability to fix this yourself. Exercise it or stop complaining. And if the people you game with truly, genuinely absolutely refuse to accommodate any requests for something different, then go find other people to play with.
I don't necessarily have the capability to fix this myself. I have very little time to be able to make it to the game stores, and it is usually a last minute thing when I do. Scheduling ahead is therefore impossible.
When I do show up, the ones who were usually ready to accommodate were already there playing another game, or had been driven out of the game by the Extremerollers, so were playing 40K or Sigmar, which I don't have.
This isn't about bemoaning our existence. It is relating the situation/experiences of our meta to you. Even on a JML night, more people were playing Steamroller than JML (which was me and someone who was the odd man out that night), and this wasn't even the store that had a person say, "We only play Steamroller here".
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 8, 2019 17:37:11 GMT
Our experiences are seemingly so divergent that there is no middle ground. If you are either unwilling or unable to effect the change you desire, then I honestly can’t help you. I have never, ever encountered players who, if asked nicely, would not accommodate their opponent and play an enjoyable game. Schedule a “50 points only” day at your local shop. Run a small-point-value escalating league. Do something. Stop bemoaning your problems on a middle-of-nowhere message board and stop demanding that somebody else fix what you perceive to be a problem. You have the capability to fix this yourself. Exercise it or stop complaining. And if the people you game with truly, genuinely absolutely refuse to accommodate any requests for something different, then go find other people to play with.
I don't necessarily have the capability to fix this myself. I have very little time to be able to make it to the game stores, and it is usually a last minute thing when I do. Scheduling ahead is therefore impossible.
When I do show up, the ones who were usually ready to accommodate were already there playing another game, or had been driven out of the game by the Extremerollers, so were playing 40K or Sigmar, which I don't have.
This isn't about bemoaning our existence. It is relating the situation/experiences of our meta to you. Even on a JML night, more people were playing Steamroller than JML (which was me and someone who was the odd man out that night), and this wasn't even the store that had a person say, "We only play Steamroller here".
That's the whole thing though, right? You are a casualty of the "we only play 75 pts" attitude. That is what we want to fix here. We are truly on the same side, so I'm not sure why there seems to be so much disagreement. |
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Post by marxlives on Jun 8, 2019 19:27:27 GMT
I'm excited for Oblivion, but no one in my meta really cares about or Warmahordes anymore. I have one or two other players that are kind of interested. If PP ever released a mordheim style build and customize a warband/army, explore and loot the city, system I know we'd probably have a a dozen or more players coming back. We still run a Mordheim league once or twice per year and we used to have 30+ diehard PP players when WarmaHordes was in its prime. Oblivion looks cool and I'd play it if I had anyone left to play it with, but it's still not quite the campaign system I've been wanting. Luckily the campaign is built for 2-4 players. Hopefully you can get a friend to just play it through and just have a ball with it by team building custom terrain for scenarios. Give the campaign a slow, purposeful burn and excitement will generate as long as you all are having a ball. |
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Post by michael on Jun 8, 2019 20:03:57 GMT
Michael, there's a thin line between disagreeing with someone and insulting them. Let's make sure not to cross it.
That goes for everyone else in here too. Don’t worry. I have no intentions of insulting anyone. My intention was to call out the utter futility of self-defeating attitudes. I can’t stand that. “I have a problem!” “Here’s a solution.” “That will never work, because of this problem!” I am checking out of this thread, though. That should solve any mod-related issues. |
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smoth
Junior Strategist
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Post by smoth on Jun 10, 2019 2:48:54 GMT
In fairness, when I was new some people in my first club would play lower point games. But they would complain every time that I should upgrade to 50pts (mk2) ASAP. Once people knew I was capable of playing 50, they would make their excuses about smaller games. Playing games online, it has been extremely rare to see anyone accept a low point game unless both players were new. sorry? dunno, I pack the night before for 50+pts. If you want a bb game always post ahead of time, so people can pack their battlebox all nice and neat. I don't often bring bb with me if I am there for a 50pt and vice versa but ILOVE bb games. post to the group for your local meta. I do that when I want a certain sized game. unless I am showing for teaching(which requires a critical mass) I'd rather be painting at home. LET SOMEONE KNOW! Michael, there's a thin line between disagreeing with someone and insulting them. Let's make sure not to cross it.
That goes for everyone else in here too. Don’t worry. I have no intentions of insulting anyone. My intention was to call out the utter futility of self-defeating attitudes. I can’t stand that. “I have a problem!” “Here’s a solution.” “That will never work, because of this problem!” people who are gonna make excuse are vexing in their evasions. I hate it! esp with painting. I love that aspect, it is ok if you have no talent for it. only one person to date has been a "bad painter" and that guy was an arsehole so i just cringed and said nothing. If someone doesn't want to do something but wants to perpetually play the blame/excuses game walk away. the reality is if you want something you WILL get to it. |
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
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Post by Ganso on Jun 10, 2019 22:38:07 GMT
That's the whole thing though, right? You are a casualty of the "we only play 75 pts" attitude. That is what we want to fix here. When people suggest we each take ownership of our own hobby is so that we can reduce this "casualty", "victimization" attitude that permeates those of us with less opportunities to play and actually build an environment we feel comfortable playing in. It's true in any context that the people most invested in "a thing" will be the ones that drive the level of engagement of those around them. Steamroller, Masters and Champion scenarios are in the same Organized Play section as JML and Seasonal Leagues. But if competitive players are the ones diving for information, and casuals are only passively consuming it, guess which topics are going to be on the forefront of most discussions? If Competitive players are the ones setting up groups to schedule games, showing up week after week to play, arriving early to setup tables, etc. and Casual players expect to just walk in and get a game, then the type of game they'll get are the ones the Competitive players dictate. This game can be enjoyed on any level of experience, I truly believe that, which is why I think playing opponents at your skill level and having similar expectations is key to enjoying this game. That said, if you can't walk into a store and trivially get the gaming experience you desire, like you would with GW, or Magic, and your first reaction is "I can't be bothered", than you really need to consider dropping this game and playing something else. The Competitive players have spent years building the community they wish to engage with. Sure, that may mean their community may eventually die off from attrition, but it won't be because they didn't get the casuals in, it will be because they couldn't turn more people into the competitive scene. Competitive players can't "Beer and Pretzel" their game for long. Casual players need to be Hardcore about building a Casual community. Sounds oxymoronic, but there is no way around this, it's not going to build itself. |
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Post by dogganmguest on Jun 11, 2019 3:42:36 GMT
That's probably the crux of the disagreement right there. Casuals need to attract new players to the game with the promise of interesting formats, but the argument often presented is that you can just ask one of the existing players to play a casual format and they'll happily oblige. My experience is that the latter case is bunk. Attracting players who aren't currently interested in the game is an entirely different proposition, and is certainly going to take work. Also it's an approach that might work in game stores where people wander in casually off the street with no preconceptions, but not so much in a club where people already have an interest in a particular system (and hard-to-shift opinions about the others).
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Post by sand20go on Jun 11, 2019 13:52:26 GMT
That's the whole thing though, right? You are a casualty of the "we only play 75 pts" attitude. That is what we want to fix here. When people suggest we each take ownership of our own hobby is so that we can reduce this "casualty", "victimization" attitude that permeates those of us with less opportunities to play and actually build an environment we feel comfortable playing in. It's true in any context that the people most invested in "a thing" will be the ones that drive the level of engagement of those around them. Steamroller, Masters and Champion scenarios are in the same Organized Play section as JML and Seasonal Leagues. But if competitive players are the ones diving for information, and casuals are only passively consuming it, guess which topics are going to be on the forefront of most discussions? If Competitive players are the ones setting up groups to schedule games, showing up week after week to play, arriving early to setup tables, etc. and Casual players expect to just walk in and get a game, then the type of game they'll get are the ones the Competitive players dictate. This game can be enjoyed on any level of experience, I truly believe that, which is why I think playing opponents at your skill level and having similar expectations is key to enjoying this game. That said, if you can't walk into a store and trivially get the gaming experience you desire, like you would with GW, or Magic, and your first reaction is "I can't be bothered", than you really need to consider dropping this game and playing something else. The Competitive players have spent years building the community they wish to engage with. Sure, that may mean their community may eventually die off from attrition, but it won't be because they didn't get the casuals in, it will be because they couldn't turn more people into the competitive scene. Competitive players can't "Beer and Pretzel" their game for long. Casual players need to be Hardcore about building a Casual community. Sounds oxymoronic, but there is no way around this, it's not going to build itself. Lot of wisdom here. And experience. I think it comes down to that strange quality called "leadership". Ganso and I are in the same "mega-meta" and there have developed, interestingly, 2 groups. One - which is larger - lets call the "A" crowd. Multiple ATC team players, WTC team captain. Con winners. It has grown into a group of about 7 to 12 that regularly game multiple nights a week. They WILL play beer and pretzels but not default. Indeed, playing anything other than S tier can be a brutal time - cause it will get stomped by lists that are fine tuned and WELL known. But you know, we all have a lot of fun with that. This group's members travel throughout Souther California to get games in with a larger competitive meta. SR fire nearly every weekend if you are willing to drive 1 to 2 hours. Group 2 plays on one night every 2 weeks. Maybe SLIGHTLY smaller but not by much. They will play caster draft, narrative, whose the boss, etc. etc. Competitive players will sometimes drop by but they bring jank and off lists and alt factions. Both groups have leadership. Guys that organize stuff. Guys that enforce social norms (look it up, a thing), Guys who take care of logistical details like talking to the LGS to let them know we want a SR time. It works. But it isn't 4 pages of complicated. It is LEADERSHIP. Lots of different styles but almost always a required component of making things move forward. |
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 11, 2019 16:21:09 GMT
This game can be enjoyed on any level of experience, I truly believe that, which is why I think playing opponents at your skill level and having similar expectations is key to enjoying this game. That said, if you can't walk into a store and trivially get the gaming experience you desire, like you would with GW, or Magic, and your first reaction is "I can't be bothered", than you really need to consider dropping this game and playing something else. And there is a difference between "can't be bothered" and "lack the resources to". I would set up casual events, but right now my priorities are set at things like "family", of which I am the head, and "experience", because of the lack of time. True, I could start sacrificing my family duties in favor of setting up and pushing the softer side of WarmaHordes, but that would be selfish at this point. It works. But it isn't 4 pages of complicated. It is LEADERSHIP. Lots of different styles but almost always a required component of making things move forward. I can't disagree, but it takes someone with time and experience to be in that place of leadership. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 12, 2019 7:27:40 GMT
And there is a difference between "can't be bothered" and "lack the resources to". I would set up casual events, but right now my priorities are set at things like "family", of which I am the head, and "experience", because of the lack of time. True, I could start sacrificing my family duties in favor of setting up and pushing the softer side of WarmaHordes, but that would be selfish at this point. I can't disagree, but it takes someone with time and experience to be in that place of leadership. Sorry, but you don't need "experience" to pick up the mantle, or nobody every would because nobody would have experience. I can understand the time argument; it is perfectly reasonable to make the choice to spend more of it on your family than on a hobby. However, if nobody has time, then indeed nobody will grow the community. |
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Post by marxlives on Jun 12, 2019 14:57:47 GMT
You can be a bag of dicks about it if you like, but that's not a prophecy, that's direct experience. Pretty much. OR: "I'm pretty new to the game, and I only have a small collection, can we play something small?" "We only play Steamroller here. Build up your army and come back later." OR: "I'm pretty new to the game, and I only have a small collection, can we play something small?" "The game is focused on Steamroller, so let's get you playing that right now."
OR: "I'm pretty new to the game, and I only have a small collection, can we play something small?" "Sorry, I already scheduled a Steamroller game with another person, sorry."
Our experiences are seemingly so divergent that there is no middle ground. If you are either unwilling or unable to effect the change you desire, then I honestly can’t help you. I have never, ever encountered players who, if asked nicely, would not accommodate their opponent and play an enjoyable game. Schedule a “50 points only” day at your local shop. Run a small-point-value escalating league. Do something. Stop bemoaning your problems on a middle-of-nowhere message board and stop demanding that somebody else fix what you perceive to be a problem. You have the capability to fix this yourself. Exercise it or stop complaining. And if the people you game with truly, genuinely absolutely refuse to accommodate any requests for something different, then go find other people to play with. Having to communicate and socialize with people to ask basic questions before, during, and after games is always my undoing. Why can't people just read my mind and accommodate!? |
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Post by marxlives on Jun 12, 2019 15:09:16 GMT
And there is a difference between "can't be bothered" and "lack the resources to". I would set up casual events, but right now my priorities are set at things like "family", of which I am the head, and "experience", because of the lack of time. True, I could start sacrificing my family duties in favor of setting up and pushing the softer side of WarmaHordes, but that would be selfish at this point. I can't disagree, but it takes someone with time and experience to be in that place of leadership. Sorry, but you don't need "experience" to pick up the mantle, or nobody every would because nobody would have experience. I can understand the time argument; it is perfectly reasonable to make the choice to spend more of it on your family than on a hobby. However, if nobody has time, then indeed nobody will grow the community. True, as someone who has a family, I have dipped out of scenes completely only to rebuild once things even out. There was a time for a couple of years I could only play at home and I would invite people from the store over. If you want to work on your family, then I don't know why you are worrying about a local store driven scene. Just play from home, obviously your time is driving you there. If you are worried about the experience, well no one has experience. I think there is this weird community expectation that is an unfortunate hold over from the Press Ganger days when people expected EOs to be part time employees of PP (which is probably why PP dropped the program) rather than volunteers. You don't see this issue with 40k and it is completely volunteer. There are not even any official world tournaments sponsored by GW. EOs are just people who are using social media and social skills to coordinate meet up times. The only other place I have seen this attitude is Cub Scouts where the entire program consists of parents who are driving the events through volunteering their time. It is unfortunate but every year I have seen parents drop their kids out Scouts after the 1st day when they realize that Scouts is not free day care. |
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