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Post by falkman on Jun 5, 2019 21:59:53 GMT
PP has spent a lot of time building up its game as "THE competitive wargame." It's going to take a lot of effort to switch many people's thinking about this game. Hopefully this will work out and we'll see more narrative style games come up. Has Privateer done that? Can you point to a magazine ad, or Facebook ad/post, or anything directly from Privateer that says that? Or is that the way that players try to market the game, or perhaps the perception that has randomly accrued in the community? Hmm? Page 5, Iron Gauntlet, streams focusing on the competitive events at L&L, etc etc.
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Post by michael on Jun 5, 2019 22:03:15 GMT
Has Privateer done that? Can you point to a magazine ad, or Facebook ad/post, or anything directly from Privateer that says that? Or is that the way that players try to market the game, or perhaps the perception that has randomly accrued in the community? Hmm? Privateer Press sponsors competitive tournament leagues. They make steamroller tournaments the showcase events at their conventions. Their most consistent, longest running formats are champions and master's, which are competitive tournaments, not narrative games. Privateer Press has made it quite clear from their actions and the events they choose to promote that they support the competitive version of their game more than the narrative version. And they also release multiple casual leagues each year, in addition to hosting elaborate narrative events at their premier events, GenCon and Lock and Load. I think you are picking and choosing the evidence that best supports your beliefs rather than examining all the facts in an unbiased fashion.
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Post by michael on Jun 5, 2019 22:04:02 GMT
Has Privateer done that? Can you point to a magazine ad, or Facebook ad/post, or anything directly from Privateer that says that? Or is that the way that players try to market the game, or perhaps the perception that has randomly accrued in the community? Hmm? Page 5, Iron Gauntlet, streams focusing on the competitive events at L&L, etc etc. The Page 5 that hasn’t existed for 3 years? The same Lock & Load that hosts multiple narrative events? Edited to add: actually, it has been a lot longer than 3 years. All MK I expansion books contained a reaffirmation of Page 5 and the spirit it contained. You’ll note that no such corresponding gibberish exists in Wrath (the first MK II expansion) or any of the MK II expansion books. Almost like they have been phasing out Page 5 for eight years or something like that!
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Post by michael on Jun 5, 2019 22:21:04 GMT
And while we’re at it!
I objected to the claim that “Privateer has spent a lot of time billing this game as ‘THE competitive wargame’.”
The existence of competitive formats does not in any way conclusively prove that claim.
I would like to see any sort of promotional material from Privateer that makes this claim.
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privvy
Junior Strategist
Formerly The Nomad on PP's forums
Posts: 317
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Post by privvy on Jun 5, 2019 23:03:16 GMT
Page 5, Iron Gauntlet, streams focusing on the competitive events at L&L, etc etc. The Page 5 that hasn’t existed for 3 years? The same Lock & Load that hosts multiple narrative events? Edited to add: actually, it has been a lot longer than 3 years. All MK I expansion books contained a reaffirmation of Page 5 and the spirit it contained. You’ll note that no such corresponding gibberish exists in Wrath (the first MK II expansion) or any of the MK II expansion books. Almost like they have been phasing out Page 5 for eight years or something like that! I have Page 5 in Prime MkII
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Post by Azahul on Jun 5, 2019 23:17:22 GMT
I have Page 5 in Prime MkII michael is saying that it's not reiterated in the Mark II expansions the way it was in Mark I expansions.
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 6, 2019 1:37:50 GMT
Has Privateer done that? Can you point to a magazine ad, or Facebook ad/post, or anything directly from Privateer that says that? Or is that the way that players try to market the game, or perhaps the perception that has randomly accrued in the community? Hmm? Privateer Press sponsors competitive tournament leagues. They make steamroller tournaments the showcase events at their conventions. Their most consistent, longest running formats are champions and master's, which are competitive tournaments, not narrative games. Privateer Press has made it quite clear from their actions and the events they choose to promote that they support the competitive version of their game more than the narrative version.
Oddly enough they've also created a lot of less competitive outings for WarmaHordes that a lot of people tend to forget about, too.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jun 6, 2019 19:11:14 GMT
No one is arguing that PP doesn’t produce content for things other than competitive games, so I would contend that Ganso is arguing against a strawman.
However, it can be a little difficult to find players for these casual scenarios. First, they aren’t really as well-organized and easy to find as the Steamroller packet, so pick up games tend to default to steamroller because it’s what both players have easy access to. I think it would be neat if PP were to compile all these scenarios from old leagues, NQ, etc. somewhere all in one big packet.
Second, finding community to play games other than steamroller can be difficult unless you are in touch with a basement meta that does casual play. Depending on your meta, casual play and anything other than steamroller can be met with indifference at best. The last time I played one of PP’s summer or winter rampage scenarios in a shop, for example, I got negative comments from competitive players about how they’re playing a “real” game and I’m not.
Third, it is easy to get the feeling that competitive play is emphasized and anything else plays a distant second fiddle — that’s definitely what seems to get the most attention online.
We can argue about to what degree this is because of PP’s actions or from the community, but from what I’ve seen, it seems like there is an issue with less competitive players feeling pushed away from the game and either giving up completely or only playing basement games. Unless, of course, no one cares about those filthy casuals and hobbyists and they should all sell their armies and go play AoS instead.
Personally, I’m looking forward to Oblivion, but would like to see more info before I really make a judgement.
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2019 19:50:50 GMT
I have Page 5 in Prime MkII michael is saying that it's not reiterated in the Mark II expansions the way it was in Mark I expansions. Indeed! Thank you for clarifying. Page 5 made it into Prime MK II and then got put out to pasture in all subsequent expansion books. There was a time and place for Page 5, but it passed long ago. Only players have pushed “Page 5” for quite a while. Heck, the contents of page 5 of MK III Prime is a polite welcome and introduction to the game!
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Jun 6, 2019 22:09:23 GMT
My meta has played every narrative event as they came out as long as we had someone organized enough to run it. Lurking in this discussion I think there are weak arguments being made on both sides and having been in the game for more years then I can count (I can usually get to three), but the preponderance of the evidence is that PP *produces* plenty of casual stuff every year. Furthermore, as a consumer of cons primarily through Insiders, I would say that they put more weight on the casual side of the con there. They do stories about the big narrative scenario, building the table for said scenario, the Iron Arena, the hobby room, the winners of the competitive events, and others I am sure that don't come to mind.
I suspect most metas focus on the competitive stuff more because it is what is sure to be available wherever you go rather than because they are composed of hard core players who expect to win major tournaments. Honestly, I think the game could use more fluffy and noncompetitive content. I only got people to play the Hunt the huge base game out of the trollblood issue of prime once, but it was really fun.
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Post by michael on Jun 7, 2019 15:16:18 GMT
My meta has played every narrative event as they came out as long as we had someone organized enough to run it. ... but the preponderance of the evidence is that PP *produces* plenty of casual stuff every year. Furthermore, as a consumer of cons primarily through Insiders, I would say that they put more weight on the casual side of the con there. They do stories about the big narrative scenario, building the table for said scenario, the Iron Arena, the hobby room, the winners of the competitive events, and others I am sure that don't come to mind. I. You hit on several critical points! Everybody needs an organizer to make things happen. That’s the point I keep trying to drive home in all these random threads when people complain “Nobody plays casual stuff in my meta!” or “nobody plays lower point games in my meta!” I tell them to, you know, play those types of games, and the other posters seem genuinely befuddled! Like they need somebody’s permission or PP to change all the rules or something to force people to do that! Weird, but true! Also, having been to 6 Lock & Loads to far, I can strongly confirm that the Iron Arena easily has double or triple the attendance of the tournament rooms, just based on my observations alone. For all the online ballyhoo about how tournaments are supreme and the main draw of this game, in real life the Iron Arena is significantly busier 24/7 compared to the tournament room. I don’t have access to the computer records of all the games to say with certainty, but I am willing to bet the 80/20 rule is firmly in play!
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Post by dogganmguest on Jun 7, 2019 21:00:22 GMT
"Hey, let's play a low point game" "Uh, no thanks, the game is designed and only balanced around 75 points" "But it might be fun, and if not, we can find out quickly and play another...." "Yeah, I'm starting a 75 point game with this guy. Good luck in your search"
[repeat for every person in your club or store]
It's not a problem with a "just play those games, duh!" solution, unless someone comes up with some solitaire rules.
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Post by michael on Jun 7, 2019 22:52:01 GMT
"Hey, let's play a low point game" "Uh, no thanks, the game is designed and only balanced around 75 points" "But it might be fun, and if not, we can find out quickly and play another...." "Yeah, I'm starting a 75 point game with this guy. Good luck in your search" [repeat for every person in your club or store] It's not a problem with a "just play those games, duh!" solution, unless someone comes up with some solitaire rules. Paging self-fulfilling prophecy. Self-fulfilling prophecy, you have a call on line 1.
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Post by dogganmguest on Jun 7, 2019 23:27:50 GMT
You can be a bag of dicks about it if you like, but that's not a prophecy, that's direct experience.
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Post by Charistoph on Jun 7, 2019 23:39:22 GMT
You can be a bag of dicks about it if you like, but that's not a prophecy, that's direct experience. Pretty much.
OR:
"I'm pretty new to the game, and I only have a small collection, can we play something small?"
"We only play Steamroller here. Build up your army and come back later."
OR:
"I'm pretty new to the game, and I only have a small collection, can we play something small?"
"The game is focused on Steamroller, so let's get you playing that right now."
OR:
"I'm pretty new to the game, and I only have a small collection, can we play something small?"
"Sorry, I already scheduled a Steamroller game with another person, sorry."
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