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Post by hocestbellum on May 29, 2019 16:19:34 GMT
You chuckle, but I've been strongly considering trying to run Berzerkers on Sorscha0 with Strak2. She can fuel and Boundless Charge one, and Strakhov can Last Stand it. That's quite the missile, capable of scrapping most heavies and Battle Engines. (63% chance on a Jugger, 95 on an Ironclad). Main problem is that I basically don't have time to play these days, so all my mad ideas just languish. My main question here is why would you do that? 10'' threat isn't that great and it means you're playing Strakhov2 in either Jaws of the wolf (which is a terrible for so many reasons) or in winterguard kommand (which is a less terrible idea but still terrible). Strakhov2 wants infantry he can buff, so armored corps or legion of steel works best for him, also just ignore that last stand is on his card when building list for him, you're less likely to hate yourself afterward trying to make that spell work in khador. My line of thinking with Berserkers is not that I expect them to kill stuff, it's that I want them to be threatening. In theory, they're bait. At 8 points I don't especially care if my opponent kills them, especially if it sets up a piece trade. But if they ignore them, then 2 focus from my caster makes them extremely dangerous. That makes them more effective as bait. Your counter-arguments are perfectly valid. It's simply another small-scale synergy I'd like to test for effectiveness. (And as a caveat, I'm 100% happy playing non-theme if I think a synergy is worth more than the theme benefits) |
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 29, 2019 16:27:27 GMT
If you're not putting Last Stand on anything else, just leave it on Alexia1 and send newly-spawned Risen to attack stuff, possibly with CMA.
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Post by sand20go on May 29, 2019 16:53:40 GMT
Good point hocestbellum Strakhov2 doesn't really bring anything special to the shooting here..... No...but he brings some of the best ANTI-SHOOTING (and especially anti spray shooting) we have in the game.
Again, the issue with my pair is that I want Vlad2 Wolves as my "key" drop. It gets so much board space, 16 inch threat on feated doomies is boss and the eliminators create wonderful havoc for my opponents who HAVE to deal with them/camp transfers or lose.
But it MELTS to shooting. Again, a great example of my frustrating with the pairing was this weekend - where Vlad2 AND B3 Jaws SUCKED into Raveyn and double MHSF....and would have equally sucked (perhaps less sucked but still sucked) into Issyria and double Sleds. OW2 helps a BIT but not that much since Ravyn has snipe on her card. Juris wasn't there but Jaws B3 needs to play VERY cagey into Sylvestro double railless - it essentially becomes a challenging game of making sure everything is in control and well positioned but NOT too close to give those Raillesses more than one target a spray. DOABLE but A game required.
But with Strakov2 we have some interesting game. Feat can be used to buy some time for the shocks into Sylvestro because even with purifying IR off they are ARM 24 and tough. The Double Shield Guards can help keep the Chariot from being blinded by Gorman. Looking at the math (If I did Buy and Boost right)...._IF_ you don't get rusted you actually have a better than 50% chance of weathering out Both Railesses spraying with Sylvestro.
MHSF should be tankable through this. Lots of CRA love but the oppression tanker, the shield guard, the repairs would have allowed me to weather that out a lot better than B3 was able to as the Jacks took that 3rd damage dice over and over and over ;-)
Issyria would still be a challenge. Blinding light would make the Siege Chariot "sad" and double sleds under her feat, even with IR on the Chariot, can likely shoot it off. But a lot would depend on what ELSE was in the list and whether she would be able to lock down the chariot and the tankers long enough to focus on the rest of the army with the shooting. POSSIBLY in this match up OW2 is strickly better BUT it is important to keep in mind that those Sleds even under windstorm have a 12 walking/15 inch charging threat on OW2 AND have a fairly solid chance to kill her. Not true in WGI assuming she has lots of tasty SacPawns....but then you are DEFINATELY losing a unit a turn as she blinding lights off whichever unit has the rockets.
That is my issue. I need the BEST balls out anti-shooting list in a meta where people's shooting is usually "good enough" to make a good size dent in our jacks. Welcome to a place where we field 2 ATC teams ;-)
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Post by auraco on May 29, 2019 17:40:44 GMT
When you say spray shooting, you mean the armor bonus from the feat right? Otherwise I really don't see it...
I'd say that Vlad2 in wolves is actually not terrible against Spray shooting, Wind blast is very meh against long range shooting, but it's against short range shooting like sprays that you can actually get some mileage out of it. Combining wind blast and wind ravager from the koldun lord is actually not terrible against sprays. The list falls appart against regular long range shooting though.
As for playing Vlad2 and Butcher3 in a pairing, it's only asking to get shot to death they both have kit that are great against melee army and suck into shooting army.
But while we're talking of using a feat to go up against shooting, wouldn't Zerkova1 be the best anti spray shooting we have, the short-ish range on sprays mean they can't get much work done if you walk forward agressively with her when you feat? That's before considering the clouds, I know anti cloud tech exist, but stuff like guidance can only affect one model at the time, so clouds should still protect a good portion of your army.
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Post by sand20go on May 29, 2019 17:56:21 GMT
When you say spray shooting, you mean the armor bonus from the feat right? Otherwise I really don't see it... I'd say that Vlad2 in wolves is actually not terrible against Spray shooting, Wind blast is very meh against long range shooting, but it's against short range shooting like sprays that you can actually get some mileage out of it. Combining wind blast and wind ravager from the koldun lord is actually not terrible against sprays. The list falls appart against regular long range shooting though. As for playing Vlad2 and Butcher3 in a pairing, it's only asking to get shot to death they both have kit that are great against melee army and suck into shooting army. But while we're talking of using a feat to go up against shooting, wouldn't Zerkova1 be the best anti spray shooting we have, the short-ish range on sprays mean they can't get much work done if you walk forward agressively with her when you feat? That's before considering the clouds, I know anti cloud tech exist, but stuff like guidance can only affect one model at the time, so clouds should still protect a good portion of your army. Yes. ARM 24 into the Raillles sprays. Tried Zerkova 1. Her problem is that there are a ton of things that have long range walks and wack threats. For every inch that Zerkova is not up the board is an inch they are out of feat and where you are in trouble if your army gets too far out in front of her.
So consider - Toro under superfuel has a 7 inch walk range and a 2 inch reach. The Vulcan (if in the list) has a 10 inch superfuel Walk and wack range. Depending on things, the Sled+Imperatus has a 10 inch walk and wack range. All of those LIKELY kill her. True, Watcher with a jugger makes it dicey but sometimes just take the chances that you will get frozen.
I REALLY tried to make her work. Both AC and in Wolves. Her feat is great but either you have to hold too far back (see above) or opponents just walk back out of threat ranges and overcome the time walk. Why other time walk casters work is that they bring a LOT of shooting so they get 2 turns to attrition you. Maybe that is the answer - but then she is vulnerable to cloud walls, mass stealth, blinding light, etc. without any spells to help with cracking an armor centerpiece like the Vulcan.
You can use the clouds to get to Def 17 on her. Helpful. More dice. But at ARM 15/16 boxes you need to hit her like twice to kill her.
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Post by michael on May 29, 2019 18:47:12 GMT
If you're not putting Last Stand on anything else, just leave it on Alexia1 and send newly-spawned Risen to attack stuff, possibly with CMA. I would not consider this a viable tactic, considering the amount of difficulty one has in getting Last Stand on her in the first place... |
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 29, 2019 20:27:57 GMT
If you're not putting Last Stand on anything else, just leave it on Alexia1 and send newly-spawned Risen to attack stuff, possibly with CMA. I would not consider this a viable tactic, considering the amount of difficulty one has in getting Last Stand on her in the first place... Eh, the thread title has the word Jank in it so... |
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Post by borderprince on May 30, 2019 4:28:50 GMT
My line of thinking with Berserkers is not that I expect them to kill stuff, it's that I want them to be threatening. In theory, they're bait. At 8 points I don't especially care if my opponent kills them, especially if it sets up a piece trade. But if they ignore them, then 2 focus from my caster makes them extremely dangerous. That makes them more effective as bait. Your counter-arguments are perfectly valid. It's simply another small-scale synergy I'd like to test for effectiveness. (And as a caveat, I'm 100% happy playing non-theme if I think a synergy is worth more than the theme benefits) One of the difficulties with Berserkers being bait is that in most lists they will lag behind the warrior units (even AC, because of the Advanced Move). So you either hold up the rest of your list and/or scenario presence to get the Berserkers in front, or don't seem to be able to use Berserkers in this way very effectively. Happy to be shown I'm wrong on this though! |
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Post by hocestbellum on May 30, 2019 7:27:00 GMT
My line of thinking with Berserkers is not that I expect them to kill stuff, it's that I want them to be threatening. In theory, they're bait. At 8 points I don't especially care if my opponent kills them, especially if it sets up a piece trade. But if they ignore them, then 2 focus from my caster makes them extremely dangerous. That makes them more effective as bait. Your counter-arguments are perfectly valid. It's simply another small-scale synergy I'd like to test for effectiveness. (And as a caveat, I'm 100% happy playing non-theme if I think a synergy is worth more than the theme benefits) One of the difficulties with Berserkers being bait is that in most lists they will lag behind the warrior units (even AC, because of the Advanced Move). So you either hold up the rest of your list and/or scenario presence to get the Berserkers in front, or don't seem to be able to use Berserkers in this way very effectively. Happy to be shown I'm wrong on this though! That's a good point, and something I hadn't considered |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 30, 2019 10:48:39 GMT
Referring to the original list: I'd drop a rager for a destroyer personally. Get the points by minimizing the mechaniks I think.
Otherwise, you really don't want to clump up against sprays and Ice Cage AoEs, so maybe try bombadiers instead of shock troopers?! You have a point spare anyway, so can cover the extra cost. Also Last Stand on guys with crit. shred could be randomly fun...
No idea if it's good, but that's probably how I'd tweak the list given the match ups you want to stick this into.
Cheers,
Dave
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