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Post by skathrex on Jun 25, 2019 15:39:53 GMT
I don't think WoW is the place for Karchev since he really REALLY like his S0.
But I hope they will have some form of jack benefit somewhere.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 25, 2019 16:08:13 GMT
Karchev was taking names long before S0 existed. I can't see how he's suddenly become terrible if he doesn't take her, especially if he can get easy access to ARM debuffs, hit fixers and extra focus. There's more than one way to skin a Ferox!
Auraco; my main hope is that since they're having to look at LegoS anyway, they'll drop that stupid 'no char merc unit' restriction and put Assault Kommandos in the theme. Beyond that I almost don't care what the actual benefits are!
WGK is a tricky one to gauge. I'm so used to the Advanced Move benefit I can't imagine anything else!
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 25, 2019 17:48:01 GMT
Sorscha_0 is a constant available to the whole faction. Deciding NOT to play with her has to come with a very good reason. Usually along the same reasons as a player deciding not to bring Choir or the Kriel Stone.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 25, 2019 18:41:30 GMT
Tch, hyperbole. She's available in two themes, one of which is rubbish. She removes jacks from the battlegroups of jack casters, some of which have excellent benefits. There are plenty of casters who can do at least two parts of the free charge + pathfinder + SPD boost schtick without her help.
She's undoubtedly good, but I'd hardly call her an auto-include.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 25, 2019 20:11:16 GMT
In the current meta, if your jacks can't threaten at the very least 12 (where 13 is the sweet spot), than you are looking at an uphill climb.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 25, 2019 22:07:45 GMT
In the current meta, if your jacks can't threaten at the very least 12 (where 13 is the sweet spot), than you are looking at an uphill climb. I completely agree with this. I really do believe that you have to have a "plan" for the Derp Turtle, the Railless and the DawnSled which are all fully capable of playing the shoot and repo game and putting significant damage on heavies.. Yes yes. "scenario" before any of you type it. Again, the game that these factions play combines those models with more difficult to remove items so that they can use them as difficult to pin down gun platforms while still staying "scenario relevant". Having a 13 inch threat (S0+Threat extender+Reach) provides a way of dealing with that.
(Note, technically the Derp CAN stay outside of 13 with its RNG12 but it really wants to keep like its melee threat. )
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Post by borderprince on Jun 26, 2019 5:00:32 GMT
Rumour has it that they're removing almost all of the Advance Move, + Starting Roll and + DZ theme benefits, so I'm not as certain of the WGK supremacy. I'd be keen to see him in Wolves or AC, which have excellent solos WGK also provides excellent protection from shooting to your caster. When your caster is sitting on a big base that's a really nice benefit too. I'm not sure I'd take WGK over Jaws with Karchev because you can get jack support/juniors for free in Jaws (adding up to almost another jack), but it's definitely something to remember.
Don't disagree, but much probably depends upon where Karchev sits in your list pairing. You may have another list which is the fast list (Vlad2 Wolves with Doomreavers, Strakhov1 or Vlad1 with jacks) and Karchev more as a grindy attrition list.
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Post by skathrex on Jun 26, 2019 9:19:11 GMT
So, Karchev didn't do anything prior to S0. Or at least I haven't heard or seen anything from hin in quite a long time. The 2" and the free charge + Pathfinder at a lot to his kit.
WGK depends a lot on whats going to be free because I suspect stuff like S0 and Josef will be free after changes. Question is how much does it matter. MoW don't lose AM, maybe it stays in WGK? If it leaves WGK is there still a reason to take any WG in the list at all? Its a lot of speculation at this point but Jaws has to change to keep my interest for Karchev there simply because GC fit is kit so well, especially if you bring S0 already.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 26, 2019 10:16:48 GMT
So, Karchev didn't do anything prior to S0. Or at least I haven't heard or seen anything from hin in quite a long time. The 2" and the free charge + Pathfinder at a lot to his kit. WGK depends a lot on whats going to be free because I suspect stuff like S0 and Josef will be free after changes. Question is how much does it matter. MoW don't lose AM, maybe it stays in WGK? If it leaves WGK is there still a reason to take any WG in the list at all? Its a lot of speculation at this point but Jaws has to change to keep my interest for Karchev there simply because GC fit is kit so well, especially if you bring S0 already. Going by DiscountGames, Karchev was one of our most consistently placing casters until early 2018. He drops off massively when Armoured Corps comes on to the scene. My reasoning for that has always been that prior to AC, if you wanted a 'chunky' list it had to be jacks, and he's our best jackspam caster. Post-AC, you can use the MoW as the tanky list, and since it is more flexible, better into scenario, and has really handy theme benefits it pretty much eclipsed jack lists in Khador. That could be completely off base; only a theory I have. And it's also a little dodgy drawing broad conclusions just from DGT. But I still don't feel like a 2" range extension on 1-2 things is what makes or breaks Karchev.
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Post by jonnyboy on Jun 26, 2019 16:54:21 GMT
I think you hit the nail on the head with AC overshadowing jacks. Lots of overlap and AC brings more flexibility.
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Post by skathrex on Jun 27, 2019 7:57:44 GMT
Going by DiscountGames, Karchev was one of our most consistently placing casters until early 2018. He drops off massively when Armoured Corps comes on to the scene. My reasoning for that has always been that prior to AC, if you wanted a 'chunky' list it had to be jacks, and he's our best jackspam caster. Post-AC, you can use the MoW as the tanky list, and since it is more flexible, better into scenario, and has really handy theme benefits it pretty much eclipsed jack lists in Khador. That could be completely off base; only a theory I have. And it's also a little dodgy drawing broad conclusions just from DGT. But I still don't feel like a 2" range extension on 1-2 things is what makes or breaks Karchev. Soo, he got pushed out by another theme thats atm struggeling to stay relevant in the current meta and you want to go back to his old version without one his biggest upgrades? Even if your theory is right, why return to a Karchev version that obviously got surpassed, just because you get a bit more focus? don't you think 2" threat, pathfinder and a free charge (which btw, 2 BC are better than 2 additional focus) is the most value he can get? And terrible might be an overstatement, but he is not in the top competetive lvls. To elaborate on this. Khador has still a very very good internal balance especially when it comes to casters, so even small differences in power lvl can shift caster a few steps on our internal scale as to what our best casters are. If you want to play Jacks in WoW (which is absolutely a good choice) I would go with caster that don't need S0 as much as Karchev, Strakov1, OW2 or Vlad1 come to mind. Especially Strakov synergizes well with the rest of the theme.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 27, 2019 9:14:41 GMT
Soo, he got pushed out by another theme thats atm struggeling to stay relevant in the current meta and you want to go back to his old version without one his biggest upgrades? Even if your theory is right, why return to a Karchev version that obviously got surpassed, just because you get a bit more focus? don't you think 2" threat, pathfinder and a free charge (which btw, 2 BC are better than 2 additional focus) is the most value he can get? And terrible might be an overstatement, but he is not in the top competetive lvls. To elaborate on this. Khador has still a very very good internal balance especially when it comes to casters, so even small differences in power lvl can shift caster a few steps on our internal scale as to what our best casters are. If you want to play Jacks in WoW (which is absolutely a good choice) I would go with caster that don't need S0 as much as Karchev, Strakov1, OW2 or Vlad1 come to mind. Especially Strakov synergizes well with the rest of the theme. Is AC struggling? It's consistently been our main list for over a year now, and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. But that's slightly beside the point. I wouldn't say that I'm advocating a return to 'old Karchev'; but those lists were (by the necessity of themes) really inflexible. Sorscha adds some extra oomph for sure, and I agree that Boundless Charge is better than an additional focus, especially because it lets you charge with full focus. But Ice Cage and Brittle Frost are also better. Jugger Vs. Ironclad: - 3 focus: 36.6% chance to destroy
- 3 focus, BC: 66.8%
- 3 focus, BF: 66.7%
- 3 focus, IC: 59.6%
- 3 focus, BF + IC: 92.3%
There's pros and cons to either approach. BC gives more range and pathfinder, Wolves can stack the debuffs and provide focus in a flexible manner through the Kolduns. WGK has much better shooting, Wolves has much better magic. If WGK loses advance move, does being able to run Karchev T1 in Wolves become relevant? Is the ability to take Ruin a consideration? How much does having an extra jack in your battlegroup matter? WGKs shooting defence is great, and it's better at triggering RtW. And so on and so forth. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that in the long run, perhaps S0 WGK will be the defining factor of a successful Karchev. But the support options of Wolves look incredibly enticing to me, and I think it would be daft to not at least give them a try before dismissing it out of hand.
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Post by skathrex on Jun 27, 2019 13:59:53 GMT
So first of, I haven't considered AC for this years WTC and I know a lot of others who don't either.
As mentioned I will try WoW jack list, just Karchev seems the wrong one for it. Simply because he doesn't need dmg, he needs range. Also you mention all the WoW benefits but not the second one of WGK, Sac pawn, which is more relevant than beeing able to run with Karchev, because I don't want karchev 4" in front of my jacks and I can easily get him to the same line as all my other Jacks in WGK and if you are not taking Units the second benefit is wasted.
In your example you take 2 Forge Seers, 2 Koldun Lords, and it seems like 2 Unit of Ternions, that starts to become a lot of support which also has the problem that most of that support dies fairly easily. Koldun Lords need to be in 16" to the target and are a wounderful target for all that pow 10 shooting that can't hurt Karchev and his jacks. Imo its fairly hard to bring them to use Brittle Frost.
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Post by hocestbellum on Jun 27, 2019 14:23:27 GMT
I did mention it, although not explicitly; "WGKs shooting defence is great".
My initial thought was one Forge Seer, two Kolduns, Adjunct, one Ternion. Maybe two Ternion? Not sure. So yeah, 23 points of support, 15 of which you can get for free (we think). If I'm up against P10 shooting I can always make an 18" cloud wall using Blizzard on jacks.
But I feel this is getting a little circular. I'm clearly not convincing you, but I'm still keen to give it a go, so I'm going to suggest we just leave it until August and see how the changes all play out.
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Post by P'tit Nico on Jul 4, 2019 9:53:09 GMT
In light of the recent Dev Talk spoilers about Jaws of the Wolf, what lists do you plan to build with Karchev? You don't *have* to bring 100 points of jacks to get your freebies, but you can't get 4 freebies anymore. Free Eliminators sound good though.
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