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Post by jonnyboy on May 31, 2019 10:53:06 GMT
Any consideration for Karchev with a Colossal? I am playing against Locke+Vulcan which seems common for her...Vulcan is amazing so theres that... hmmm Karchev on paper doesn't lend himself to colossals. Colossals can't take advantage of countercharge, jump start, or RTW and takes up all of his battle group points. Not saying it couldnt work, but the colossal benefits almost nothing from karchev.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 31, 2019 13:39:13 GMT
This is either the stupidest or greatest thing I have seen lately. I am not sure which. Michael, why can't it be both? :-) Not directly related to what to run Karchev in, but what would you pair with Karchev to shore up weaknesses? Either WGK or Wolves. I think you've got a variety of casters which will work with either, but you want things that will be a hard counter to weapon-master spam. Both of those work really well. Any consideration for Karchev with a Colossal? No, I think that's suboptimal, but playable. You need to ask what does the colossal do for the caster, and what does the caster do for the colossal. In a Karchev list, the colossal is only benefiting from the feat, but that means you need to wait on using your feat until after the lines are quite engaged and the colossal can close ranks to high value targets without the benefit of RTW. Meanwhile, you could stuff in 3 jacks in trade which benefit from the full kit. The colossal will give you good shooting for triggering RTW without reaching for Widowmakers, but is it really worth it? A Conquest gives you some infantry protection, but isn't that why you brought a 2nd list anyway (if that really matters).
Meanwhile, I'm still liking this and wondering if anyone has a better idea. 2 good ranged RTW triggers, a very fast moving independent Kodiak from the top of 1, double Juggernauts for hard target redundancy, double Marauders for huge base redundancy, double Kodiaks for pathfinder and anti-infantry steam vents, and the Devastator to contest zones, anti-infantry hate, and protecting Karchev from getting pulled away.
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30
- Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0
- Devastator - PC: 14 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Kodiak - PC: 13
- Marauder - PC: 11
- Marauder - PC: 11
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0
- Destroyer - PC: 14
Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0
- Kodiak - PC: 13
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on Jun 1, 2019 1:03:13 GMT
Give, him, escort. Not that pp is listening.. Escort in place of what? He just becomes a slightly different, beefier harkevich. He already has 1 too many upkeeps. it’s an opition. Christ.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on Jun 1, 2019 1:04:02 GMT
Any consideration for Karchev with a Colossal? I am playing against Locke+Vulcan which seems common for her...Vulcan is amazing so theres that... Collosals cannot move out of activation. So i would rather behemoth.
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Post by sand20go on Jun 1, 2019 4:28:27 GMT
This is either the stupidest or greatest thing I have seen lately. I am not sure which. Michael, why can't it be both? :-) Not directly related to what to run Karchev in, but what would you pair with Karchev to shore up weaknesses? Either WGK or Wolves. I think you've got a variety of casters which will work with either, but you want things that will be a hard counter to weapon-master spam. Both of those work really well. Any consideration for Karchev with a Colossal? No, I think that's suboptimal, but playable. You need to ask what does the colossal do for the caster, and what does the caster do for the colossal. In a Karchev list, the colossal is only benefiting from the feat, but that means you need to wait on using your feat until after the lines are quite engaged and the colossal can close ranks to high value targets without the benefit of RTW. Meanwhile, you could stuff in 3 jacks in trade which benefit from the full kit. The colossal will give you good shooting for triggering RTW without reaching for Widowmakers, but is it really worth it? A Conquest gives you some infantry protection, but isn't that why you brought a 2nd list anyway (if that really matters).
Meanwhile, I'm still liking this and wondering if anyone has a better idea. 2 good ranged RTW triggers, a very fast moving independent Kodiak from the top of 1, double Juggernauts for hard target redundancy, double Marauders for huge base redundancy, double Kodiaks for pathfinder and anti-infantry steam vents, and the Devastator to contest zones, anti-infantry hate, and protecting Karchev from getting pulled away.
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30
- Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0
- Devastator - PC: 14 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Kodiak - PC: 13
- Marauder - PC: 11
- Marauder - PC: 11
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0
- Destroyer - PC: 14
Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0
- Kodiak - PC: 13
Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
Main concern with that list (but there are ALWAYS trade offs) is the lack of a shield guard. You leave yourself open to bad matchups against, for example, ret. if they have E1. I don't think you have the points for Beast so I probabaly put the destroyer under Andy, put a Rager until S0. 3 choices after that - full mechanics, add a tinker for a flag score or get eliminators in there for a unit. I can see arguments for all and I think mostly about local meta and what you like to run.
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Post by borderprince on Jun 1, 2019 10:43:56 GMT
Main concern with that list (but there are ALWAYS trade offs) is the lack of a shield guard. You leave yourself open to bad matchups against, for example, ret. if they have E1. I don't think you have the points for Beast so I probabaly put the destroyer under Andy, put a Rager until S0. 3 choices after that - full mechanics, add a tinker for a flag score or get eliminators in there for a unit. I can see arguments for all and I think mostly about local meta and what you like to run. I've become less worried about nasty solos like Eiryss1 since the Adjunct came out. If you can aim, a Destroyer with boosted to hit + Guidance has just 60.8% chance of taking out Eiryss1 in one shot (if you can't aim, only 36.5%). I've found it tends to make people much cagier with solos when they used to be able to move around much more freely against Khador.
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Post by Mr.Human on Jun 1, 2019 11:13:06 GMT
I like the dog more on Karchev then the adjunct, he needs to be up there doing some work and the dog can usually be of big help, not everything knocks down, especially because Karchev has jumpstart, people tend to pick arm crack instead. That said, I´ve myself have dropped the dog from my recent list I´ve been playing . I also think S0 is best run with a Rager, keeping close to Karchev = middle field and behind him and the Rager, this way it protects both and maybe a Juggernaut in the middle as well. This makes it way harder for an opponent to kill Karchev and deny that RtW + BC Juggernaut/Marauder in the middle of the board. The Rager also gives you some possible shooting to clear those blocked charge lanes, this happens alot in my games. With the scenarios being what they are, Karchev needs those solos, and imo the Forge Seer with an magical shooting Destroyer playing one side so Karchev can focus on the other and the middle is the best way to get those flag points from the side and possibly deny it from your opponent. I´ve found that even a boosted scattered POW 7 damage roll can hurt those (stealth) solos your opponent parks at his flag. This is what I´ve been playing lately with good success: Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army 0 / 40 Specialist Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Berserker - PC: 8 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 1, 2019 11:43:28 GMT
@mr.Human, you need to put your puppy where your mouth is if you want to maintain your credibility! :-). Anyway, I don’t dislike your list. sand20go , I’m not sure if you’re right, or borderprince is right, but the dialogue has me thinking about other ways to sneak in a Rager on Sorscha. These are now small tweaks around the edges... The most obvious answer seems to be to downgrade a Marauder and upgrade a Juggernaut to a Destroyer or Devastator, but I only have 1 assembled Devastator so for now it’s a Destroyer. I feel like this list loses a bit of hitting power, but I like the additional ranged Road to War trigger. With the Adjunct in the list, it becomes pretty hard to hide high value targets with 2 boostable guns. Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Devastator - PC: 14 - Destroyer - PC: 14 - Destroyer - PC: 14 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Normally, I hate the Grolar with anyone except for Strakhov, where i love it because it’s such a crazy ranged missle. Is a 13” non linea threat and boosted damage rolls enough to consider bringing it off the shelf? This jack package is the same as the above Battlegroup, essentially dropping the Kodiak and Juggernaut to Marauders. - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Destroyer - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Grolar - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11
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Post by borderprince on Jun 1, 2019 13:24:40 GMT
sand20go , I’m not sure if you’re right, or borderprince is right, but the dialogue has me thinking about other ways to sneak in a Rager on Sorscha. These are now small tweaks around the edges...
I certainly wouldn't say a shieldguard isn't a good idea. But some of the things which used to cause us to instinctively reach for a Shield Guard in a list with fairly easily targeted casters like Karchev now have some alternative counters/restrictions than they did in Mk2/early-Mk3. Remember how we used to always want a Shield Guard (often a Bokur) for Butcher3? That's much less common in his lists now.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jun 1, 2019 14:10:50 GMT
sand20go , I’m not sure if you’re right, or borderprince is right, but the dialogue has me thinking about other ways to sneak in a Rager on Sorscha. These are now small tweaks around the edges...
I certainly wouldn't say a shieldguard isn't a good idea. But some of the things which used to cause us to instinctively reach for a Shield Guard in a list with fairly easily targeted casters like Karchev now have some alternative counters/restrictions than they did in Mk2/early-Mk3. Remember how we used to always want a Shield Guard (often a Bokur) for Butcher3? That's much less common in his lists now.
Yes, probably so, but darn it 10 points on a shield guard always feels like a lot. The question is - is it worth dropping the hitting power of the list to put one in? (And do you like either of the alternatives...I didn’t love Sand20go’s suggestion).
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Post by skathrex on Jun 1, 2019 23:26:23 GMT
A few more games with Karchev, especially on the new Scenarios showed me...there need to be a few changes. Not to the main part, double Devs are here to stay, but I think I need 2 Destroyer to clean zones on the sides. conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0x7a7p7p7qkTkTkTkTnjdHhFlO7p8y86Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Destroyer [14] - Destroyer [14] - Devastator [14] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Gobber Tinker [2] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Destroyer [14] Yuri the Axe [0(6)] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Sadly I had to sacrifice the Ragers, but if I am down to 8 Jacks I have to take "real" Heavys. Needs some additional testing into the new scenarios but in general still very happy. Malakov still seems interesting but I am in the phase of cutting fat from the list and Malakov sits in a spot where I already want 6 solos in the 4 available slots so he gets the cut.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jun 1, 2019 23:43:25 GMT
Are you not afraid you will run into difficulty when you have no jacks that hit harder than P+S 17?
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Post by chickenslayer on Jun 2, 2019 3:54:35 GMT
You also forgot to actually add that second Devastator I think honestly that when you have access to Karchev's feat, Marauders and the odd free charge, you don't really need Ragman or the like to fix your POW And if it is an issue, can just upgrade a Marauder to a Jugg by cutting the Tinker, though I would like to keep the double sources of repair and the Tinker for scenario
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Post by borderprince on Jun 2, 2019 4:53:31 GMT
(And do you like either of the alternatives...I didn’t love Sand20go’s suggestion).
Of these alternatives:
I'd prefer the first one. The Grolar's gun isn't accurate enough to be a helpful RTW trigger, and you want to keep it moving (unlike Destroyers). That means only getting much value out it once the Grolar is in melee. That doesn't matter too much with Strkhov1, where the Grolar is an assassination jack. I think it is probably wasted points in a more grindy caster like Karchev.
skathrex - how much is Yuri in your list an issue of "want" vs "need"? He's certainly a nice solo, but in this list does he do more for anti-infatnry and pathfinder than dropping the Tinker and taking a Kodiak (upgraded from a Marauder) on Malakov?
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Post by skathrex on Jun 2, 2019 6:41:55 GMT
Well...that happens if you type lists late at night. In Karchevs BG should be 2 Devs and 1 Destroyer.
The 5 marauder version never had any dmg problems so I dont think this one will.
You could of course change yuri, tinker and marauder for the malakov+kodiak package but for one malakov is something I won't put on to a flag and it's more a side grade for the kodiak.
Yuri is not set in stone though. Depending on the desires you could easily go for something else but he is valuable for that early central 13" threat just to slow your opponent down.
The tinker is a bit of flex and could be used to upgrade a Jack but I dont think that's necessary imo marauders are just the best flex picks and the tinker is a good flag solos that helps repair your Jack's which often take chip dmg or survive with crippled systems
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