|
Post by sand20go on May 27, 2019 19:41:27 GMT
Nonono, there is nothing to see here with Karchev, move along people. Don't play him hes bad...really...no really, you know he got nerfed right? 2 Years ago shure, but nerfed! No really I have picked him up with S0 and he has proven very potent in the meta. First off WGK vs Jaws: Reasons were mentioned already but in my words: WGK has cute interactions with him but in general cute is the little brother of shit. Main Point here is something that Armchair Warrior mentioned. You want to go heavy on Jacks with him, why? A) he only synergizes with Jacks, b) he himself brings another Heavy to the table. Also you have to invest heavily invest in WGK to get use out of the benefits which is mostly Advance Move, because if you need Sac Pawns with Karchev you often just could have played better. Jaws on the other hand, obviously has meh benefits even though one could argue that No Ambush will get better with WGK, BUT has the most important one, free Cards/Points for stuff you wanna take anyway with him. That said, if you go Karchev, you have to go hard imo. Go for as much Jacks as possible meaning at least 100 point of Jacks. Which mostly leads to no or max 1 Unit of Elims/Mechs. Thats fine, you probably only want them for Scenario anyway. This also means no Colossals or Behemoth! Yes, I am a big opponent of Behemoth with Karchev because he weakens your Box Spam quit significantly. So, what to do against that Scenario weakness...simple, Devestators! I come to love our clamjacks. Arm 23 is still a hurdle many opponents struggle with and with Karchev during feat I am not afraid to open them up to kill a heavy target or a lot of Infantry. Worst case the chill and contest, which again is helping you reduce one of the weaknesses. Now on to RTW triggers. Here I am not 100% sure. I mean RTW is better 90% of the time imo, but what about triggers. With my double Dev builds I found that even with good RTW triggers (Destroyer/Marksman) I struggle to get an Alpha. Simply put, with Devs running up front and how slow the army moves up anyway you have to run turn 2, and often thats into your opponents Threatranges, just to participate in scenario. And only if your opponent is slow too, or plays defensivly you can try to get that 13" charge. Don't fret though. Free charges and RTW are still very good during the engagement. You then often just can trigger RTW with Melee or Karchevs spray. Current list?
|
|
|
Post by lorddragonmaster on May 27, 2019 19:47:50 GMT
What do you think of this? conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0x7a7qkW7s7skTkTkTnjhFhFlO7qKhador Army - 70 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Devastator [14] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Devastator [14]
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on May 27, 2019 20:21:36 GMT
What lorddragonmaster wrote is quite similar to my lists. I am pondering atm between these 2: War Room Army Khador - New Army Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Devastator - PC: 14 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 - Kodiak - PC: 13 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Gobber Tinker - PC: 2 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 THEME: Jaws of the Wolf --- GENERATED : 05/27/2019 22:17:26 BUILD ID : 2071.19-02-05 And War Room Army Khador - Marauder Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 2) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Rager - PC: 10 Yuri the Axe - PC: 0 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Gobber Tinker - PC: 2 THEME: Jaws of the Wolf --- GENERATED : 05/27/2019 22:21:07 BUILD ID : 2071.19-02-05 Hardest question is always which free solos to take
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on May 27, 2019 22:17:13 GMT
skathrex , welcome to the thread! Been missing you here. I agree that the “free card conundrum” is exactly that. I think you’re making a mistake by taking a Tinker instead of a unit of mechanics for +1 point, both for scenario play as well as to spread out your healing options. In terms of Devastators, I’m not sure I’m quite as enamored with them as you. I totally get taking 1, but after that you’re losing out on RTW triggers from the Destroyer. OK, taking it to the chin is a strategy. But, I don’t think you need to anymore. With Malakov and the Forge Seer, you’ve got the spread need to cover far zones. Try this. It’s what I started with at the beginning of the thread, with the Destroyer moved to the Forge Seer because...well...it’s good. Khador - Karchev 8 is Enough Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 I don’t love having 3 warjacks outside the Battlegroup, but Sorscha and the Forge Seer have the jacks that are going to advance move stuff in for the kill, and Malakov can get the Kodiak 14” upfield out of the gate, and I think the Kodiak is either starting the piece trade (and RTW triggers) or independently handling a far zone.
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on May 28, 2019 9:00:54 GMT
Its not really my favourite place anymore, forums in general, and I have less time on my hand. I am mostly on the Discord these days.
These are some interesting ideas you propose. And if you find the points to give me min mechs instead of the tinker let me know^^
And yes, I love our Devestators, atm my favourite jack tbh. They did so much in my games.
Malakov is certainly an idea even though hes a weird fit, you sadrifice feat and RTW which means in the end you sacrifice dmg AND speed but get a bit of independence and maybe a good jack for a second wave and later dmg.
Personally I don't like a Destroyer on a Forge seer if I don't have a second one so he can boost both hit and dmg. That for me, would be a reason to take a second forge Seer over the Adjunct even though I agree that in general the Adjunct is better. I also like the Rager because sometimes you need a SG against stuff like KD shot or Garry2.
Also no Yuri makes me sad, but he might be one that has to go.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on May 29, 2019 0:05:37 GMT
skathrex , well it’s easy to find you a point. Just drop a Marauder to a Rager. Or, drop it to a Berserker and upgrade one Marauder to a Juggernaut or Kodiak. Your list is sorely lacking pathfinder. If I were to sneak in a Devastator with my list, I think I’d do this: Khador - Karchev 8 is Enough Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 3) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 I really like the Marksman over Yuri for the advance move and camping flags. Yuri doesn’t want to sit on a flag, so you get one good turn out of him and then he’s not camping your flag anymore. The WMM and Destroyer ensure I can squeeze out 2 Road to War moves. Sometimes, getting the alpha with just two models is enough. Malakov needs testing, for sure, but without 2 Forge Seers in the list I feel focus strapped. Dumping the Devastator and Malakov and WMM for 2 Forge Seers and another Destroyer might be a good move, but with the new scenarios I like having something independent. And, although you’re trading out SPD and damage on one key turn, you’re picking up a fully loaded, faster, stronger Kodiak on EVERY turn which might be a way to start favorable piece trading. The Devastor is interesting. The Rain of Death main attack benefits from Karchev’s feat. When I’ve brought him in matchups where I wanted Steady and Sturdy, he’s gold. Screw you to Colossals towing you away to your death. Here’s what I have in mind if I go with double Forge Seers. I will note that the Forge Seers are currently on my painting table and looking sweet... War Room Army Khador - Karchev 8 is Enough 2XFS Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on May 29, 2019 15:34:39 GMT
So, Armchair Warrior let me be straight here. Not taking a Devestator is a huge mistake imo. They have a few key rolls for Karchev. Armies are to fast to rely on 13" threat alone to get you the alpha because in many situations your opponent will have advanced so far up the board that you have to walk into his threat turn 2 to be part of the scenario. Let me paint a picture: Karchev goes first everything runs. Your Jacks are at the 15" line. No chance of contesting his scenario and you still have to move up to be in some of the center scenario elements. While your opponent will probably sit at around 20-30" threatening another 10" so he either already threats past the scenario or threats the positions you have to move into next round. Karchev goes second. Jacks at the 18" line threatening to 31", your nearly there, but your opponent has had the first turn so hes probably somewher between 17 and 25" and alread threatening to at least 28", so he can use his turn to just avoid your threat and contest most zones at the edges. This scenario is often better since you now can get at least a bit or a scenario lead with your army. but often times the Devestators are still your best bet since the just go slam something and still are arm 23. Thats the main reason, of course you can just go in with normal Jacks but the truth is that arm 20 jacks are dying a bit easier these days, especially to a combined front. It may be true that Kodiaks help reduce thise issue because of their 10" runs but I doubt that they will get much more against good opponents while dying a lot easier. Pathfinder is something I noticed gets a lot better with 1 or 2 Kodiaks but in truth isn't that big of an issue thx to Boundless charge on S0. Destroyers always fail to impress me. Sometimes its nice to have a gun, but in the other cases their dmg just sucks, especially for their points. Also an issue I have seen is that against many shooting armys where I want to play Karchev into, there are not many RTW targets a Destroyer can use. In your version I would probably take at least 1 Dev. My version is a bit more directly focused against shooting hence the ragers, but I am not 100% sure they are needed. As mentioned Marksman or Yuri is a toss up for me, both are good, Yuri helps with the forward pressure while the marksman helps with your flag. Without the tinker I would lean a lot more toward the marksman. Oh before I forget, sadly Rain of Death doesn't interact with karchevs feat, its not a melee attack.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on May 29, 2019 20:40:36 GMT
skathrex, you make really good points on working in a Devastator, and being able to contest scenario with it early, and being able to push opponents out of it later on. I haven't really used the Devastator much with Karchev, but you make really good points. I'm convinced, and will give it a try. You're right of course (and unfortunately) about the feat interaction. Regarding the Kodiak, I think you're missing two things. The first is the value of his run, combined with the fact that Sorscha 0 does nothing for it. You only get the heavy boiler when running, so turn 1 if you have a big ole forest parked on your side you frequently want to be able to just run through it. Also, the more I think about it, the more I like Malakov with the Kodiak in order to be able to run 14" on turn 1. I think the following is correct: How far are you from contesting going 1st or 2nd: King of the Hill - 14" / 11" Bunker - 5" / 2" (near) or 13" / 10" (flag; actually less that by half the width of the flag) Anarchy - 11" / 8" Spread the Net - 9" / 6" (near) or 16" / 26" (far) Invasion - 11" / 8" Recon 2 - 11" / 8" Malakov and a Kodiak ensure you're right on top of your contesting wherever you want to be at the bottom of 1. with a melee threat of 33" to 36" from your back line. I think a Marksman and another Kodiak in Karchev's battlegroup also set you up for getting a 2nd model up 13" if there's any infantry at all to shoot at...just an inch back from his far side buddy. I could see squeezing in a Rager, but for what? They are still pretty squishy and not great melee output. If I start with this list, is there something you'd trade out to fit one in? Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 3) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Kovnik Andrei Malakov - PC: 0 - Kodiak - PC: 13 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
|
|
|
Post by michael on May 29, 2019 22:57:18 GMT
WMM, not the unit. (Post edited). Depending on the opponent and board state, it might be a solid play to use the WMM to get Behemoth the advance move on turn 1 to guarantee three advance moves on Turn 2, and also keep your opponent just a bit honest on placement of high value targets. As for my film... Karchev is the angry captain who yells a lot and pounds his axe on the table. Behemoth is the good cop who looks like a softie but hits like a ton of bricks and packs the super big double barreled shotgun in the rig. Beast 09, clearly the bad cop who just FLIPS OUT when you cross him. The Marauders are the unis. The Juggernaut is the guy from vice who is maybe on the take, but always ‘knows a guy’ and can get you in or out of trouble. The Forge Seer, obviously, is the M.E. The Adjunct is the deep undercover cop. Sorscha is the new detective on the beat straight out of the academy trying to prove herself. Beast has taken a shine to her. The mechanics, clearly, are the grease monkeys in the garage keeping the equipment running. Maybe one of them is the old wise janitor. And the Marksman? He’s the captain of the SWAT team. This is either the stupidest or greatest thing I have seen lately. I am not sure which.
|
|
|
Post by jonnyboy on May 30, 2019 2:38:31 GMT
Not directly related to what to run Karchev in, but what would you pair with Karchev to shore up weaknesses?
|
|
leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
|
Post by leander on May 30, 2019 6:42:11 GMT
I go for the classics, a karchev/sorscha1 pairing. With sorscha1 running a winterguard kommand list with high speed assassination potential.
|
|
smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
|
Post by smoth on May 31, 2019 2:46:39 GMT
Give, him, escort. Not that pp is listening..
|
|
|
Post by jonnyboy on May 31, 2019 3:02:27 GMT
Give, him, escort. Not that pp is listening.. Escort in place of what? He just becomes a slightly different, beefier harkevich. He already has 1 too many upkeeps.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on May 31, 2019 8:12:44 GMT
Not directly related to what to run Karchev in, but what would you pair with Karchev to shore up weaknesses?
Karchev lists tend to be less good at:
Scenario - battlegroup heavy lists often struggle with this;
Lots of warrior models - his list has fairly low number of attacks. Things like Vent Steam and AoEs can help to mitigate this, but they can only mitigate it. Particularly problematic against a list with lots of weaponmasters, which may also have longer threat ranges. I would not want to run Karchev into Exemplar Interdiction (Protectorate) or Legion of Dawn (Ret) for example.
So you probably want a list that can do scenario and/or anti-infantry well. I'd consider Sorscha1 in Wolves of Winter. Although the theme doesn't have much sticking power, she brings control to help with scenario and a personal assassination threat (always a nice get out, just in case), while Doomreavers are naturally good anti-infantry. Possibly with a Conquest to give more board control against warrior heavy lists.
The other consideration is pushing your opponent's pairing. Armored Corps, for example, tends to do scenario well (ARM21+ unpushable Shocktroopers are like that). But Karchev + Armored Corps just telegraphs "play your anti-ARM list".
|
|
|
Post by steeltitan on May 31, 2019 10:18:18 GMT
Any consideration for Karchev with a Colossal?
I am playing against Locke+Vulcan which seems common for her...Vulcan is amazing so theres that...
|
|