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Post by borderprince on May 22, 2019 20:10:39 GMT
The feat needs boosted attack rolls. As-is, he’s a significantly worse Butcher1 when it comes to straight damage. All Karchev has over B1 is the potential movement shenanigans with Battle Charged / Road to War, more boxes and ARM, and that lovely, lovely auto-Knockdown SP 10. But the potential movement shenanigans are really important. One of the main things holding Butcher1 back as a caster is the absence of a threat extender for jacks in his kit.
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Post by michael on May 22, 2019 21:00:16 GMT
The feat needs boosted attack rolls. As-is, he’s a significantly worse Butcher1 when it comes to straight damage. All Karchev has over B1 is the potential movement shenanigans with Battle Charged / Road to War, more boxes and ARM, and that lovely, lovely auto-Knockdown SP 10. But the potential movement shenanigans are really important. One of the main things holding Butcher1 back as a caster is the absence of a threat extender for jacks in his kit. I have never found threat extenders to be that important when I play Butcher1. I just use the faster and/or ranged parts of my army to kill to death whatever possibly out-threats me.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on May 23, 2019 6:52:18 GMT
conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0x7a7qkWkW7skUnjhF7phFlOkV86Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Karchev 1] Karchev the Terrible [+30] - Devastator [14] - Juggernaut [13] - Juggernaut [13] - Kodiak [13] - Spriggan [17] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] - Destroyer [14] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Beast 09 [18] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] this is the current list I use with Karchev. the destroyer on the forge seer helps to activate road to war with its pow 16 bombard. the adjunct and spriggan together can help to enable charge lines for every jack in the list by combining the beacons and guidance.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 23, 2019 11:09:20 GMT
leander , do you find you’re getting the results you want form the additional investment in a Spriggan given you already have the Adjunct? Feels redundant but I’ve not tried both together (because it feels redundant). Thoughts? Also, do you find putting Beast on Sorscha is forcing you to play her too far forward? I generally reach for a Destroyer on her to save the points and keep her safe. borderprince , thanks for you comments. I think you might be dismissing the utility of the Widowmakers a bit quickly. I think they’re the most useful unit in this theme for triggering RtW. It seems many bricks are bringing some squishy single wounds stuff...Rasheth for instance needs his Dark Ritual targets. And, if you wind up guessing wrong in list chicken, they wind up being particularly useful. The main issues I have are that bringing the unit costs you a free solo, and you playing with one fewer jack.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on May 23, 2019 11:24:58 GMT
I found that with just the spriggan, placing a beacon can be a bit tricky when faced with a load of clouds like with kolgrimma, and with just the adjunct you can target the enemy by using guidance but with just one model. using guidance on the spriggan allows me to easily throw 2 beacons where I want. It's mostly that synergy that I think having them both makes it worth against cloud barriers.
Since I normally go against kolgrimma i like having both sorscha and B-9 near the front lines. I still have to be careful but there's fun moments where my opponent forgets that sorscha 0 and B-9 are immune to their frost sprays XD also the shield guard has been pretty useful to save Sorscha from a stray boulder and his murderous thresher attack with hyper aggressive allows my list to go pretty well against infantry.
PS: people also tend to forget the 2" aura of stationary that the forge seers can put on B-9
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Post by borderprince on May 23, 2019 12:12:37 GMT
borderprince , thanks for you comments. I think you might be dismissing the utility of the Widowmakers a bit quickly. I think they’re the most useful unit in this theme for triggering RtW. It seems many bricks are bringing some squishy single wounds stuff...Rasheth for instance needs his Dark Ritual targets. And, if you wind up guessing wrong in list chicken, they wind up being particularly useful. The main issues I have are that bringing the unit costs you a free solo, and you playing with one fewer jack. Not dismissing their utility at all. I just think they are an obvious soft underbelly that shooting lists can exploit. And if that reduces your RTW triggers, that is a problem. It is quite possible I am being too pessimistic.
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Post by jonnyboy on May 23, 2019 17:09:09 GMT
Does anyone have thoughts on A+H? Their magic ability is redundant. But the extra damage seems great for karchev and Holt is a strong model to trigger rotw.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 23, 2019 17:20:31 GMT
leander and borderprince, thanks for the replies. leander - that's a really interesting point about the Forge Seer. I've mostly been thinking about that synergy in Wolves or Armored Korp, but in those instances I really don't want to waste the points or free solo spot on a Forge Seer. Here, you were already reaching for it... Needs consideration. Regarding Widowmakers, if your opponent really didn't bring any single wound infantry, then it's a mostly a waste of points. If they did, then 14" RNG and Advance Deploy is definitely enough to get one round of alpha shooting in even under fairly harsh conditions, which might be enough to justify the points just for the early RtW trigger. With Swift Hunter and DEF 14 (or 16-18 if you have some terrain), it may be enough for 2 rounds of shooting.
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leander
Junior Strategist
Posts: 185
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Post by leander on May 23, 2019 19:06:38 GMT
a fun way to use the stationary aura is to use shield guard, then hyper-agressive kicks in and if B-9 ends within 2" of the attacker well...you're now an easy target XD.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 24, 2019 11:40:03 GMT
a fun way to use the stationary aura is to use shield guard, then hyper-agressive kicks in and if B-9 ends within 2" of the attacker well...you're now an easy target leander and borderprince our conversation has inspired me to go back and look at my list with Behemoth + Widowmakers to fit in Beast. I realized that I could fit in both Behemoth and Beast 09 - the ultimate buddy cops - and still bring 7 quality heavies. What do you think of this: Khador - Karchev’s Buddy Cops Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 0 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Kodiak - PC: 13 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 - Marauder - PC: 11 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 0 - Beast 09 - PC: 18 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 The Widowmaker MM and Behemoth offer 3 relative sure bets for advance moves. Against hard ARM lists with huge bases, this counter just seems hard.
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 24, 2019 12:22:49 GMT
Behemoth and Beast 09 - the ultimate buddy cops Um, aktchewally, Ruin and Beast 09 and the ultimate buddy-cop due. Behemoth is their angry captain who yells all the time.
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Post by borderprince on May 24, 2019 12:30:10 GMT
I realized that I could fit in both Behemoth and Beast 09 - the ultimate buddy cops - and still bring 7 quality heavies. ... The Widowmakers and Behemoth offer 3 relative sure bets for advance moves. Against hard ARM lists with huge bases, this counter just seems hard. By 'widowmakers' do you mean 'Widowmaker' singular? Because I can only see 1. That said, I think it could work. Behemoth is obviously less of a focus drain and gives some serious late game presence, certainly more than Destroyers.
If Beast and Behemoth are buddy cops, who plays good cop and who plays bad cop? Or is this the more rarely used 'bad cop-bad cop' technique?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 24, 2019 12:49:13 GMT
WMM, not the unit. (Post edited).
Depending on the opponent and board state, it might be a solid play to use the WMM to get Behemoth the advance move on turn 1 to guarantee three advance moves on Turn 2, and also keep your opponent just a bit honest on placement of high value targets.
As for my film...
Karchev is the angry captain who yells a lot and pounds his axe on the table.
Behemoth is the good cop who looks like a softie but hits like a ton of bricks and packs the super big double barreled shotgun in the rig.
Beast 09, clearly the bad cop who just FLIPS OUT when you cross him.
The Marauders are the unis.
The Juggernaut is the guy from vice who is maybe on the take, but always ‘knows a guy’ and can get you in or out of trouble.
The Forge Seer, obviously, is the M.E.
The Adjunct is the deep undercover cop.
Sorscha is the new detective on the beat straight out of the academy trying to prove herself. Beast has taken a shine to her.
The mechanics, clearly, are the grease monkeys in the garage keeping the equipment running. Maybe one of them is the old wise janitor.
And the Marksman? He’s the captain of the SWAT team.
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 24, 2019 14:59:08 GMT
Damn, I actually really want to see this movie now.
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Post by skathrex on May 27, 2019 19:32:04 GMT
Nonono, there is nothing to see here with Karchev, move along people. Don't play him hes bad...really...no really, you know he got nerfed right? 2 Years ago shure, but nerfed! No really I have picked him up with S0 and he has proven very potent in the meta. First off WGK vs Jaws: Reasons were mentioned already but in my words: WGK has cute interactions with him but in general cute is the little brother of shit. Main Point here is something that Armchair Warrior mentioned. You want to go heavy on Jacks with him, why? A) he only synergizes with Jacks, b) he himself brings another Heavy to the table. Also you have to invest heavily invest in WGK to get use out of the benefits which is mostly Advance Move, because if you need Sac Pawns with Karchev you often just could have played better. Jaws on the other hand, obviously has meh benefits even though one could argue that No Ambush will get better with WGK, BUT has the most important one, free Cards/Points for stuff you wanna take anyway with him. That said, if you go Karchev, you have to go hard imo. Go for as much Jacks as possible meaning at least 100 point of Jacks. Which mostly leads to no or max 1 Unit of Elims/Mechs. Thats fine, you probably only want them for Scenario anyway. This also means no Colossals or Behemoth! Yes, I am a big opponent of Behemoth with Karchev because he weakens your Box Spam quit significantly. So, what to do against that Scenario weakness...simple, Devestators! I come to love our clamjacks. Arm 23 is still a hurdle many opponents struggle with and with Karchev during feat I am not afraid to open them up to kill a heavy target or a lot of Infantry. Worst case the chill and contest, which again is helping you reduce one of the weaknesses. Now on to RTW triggers. Here I am not 100% sure. I mean RTW is better 90% of the time imo, but what about triggers. With my double Dev builds I found that even with good RTW triggers (Destroyer/Marksman) I struggle to get an Alpha. Simply put, with Devs running up front and how slow the army moves up anyway you have to run turn 2, and often thats into your opponents Threatranges, just to participate in scenario. And only if your opponent is slow too, or plays defensivly you can try to get that 13" charge. Don't fret though. Free charges and RTW are still very good during the engagement. You then often just can trigger RTW with Melee or Karchevs spray.
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