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Post by onijet01 on May 21, 2019 16:18:52 GMT
the difference in p+s 12 armor piercing attacks vs p+s 19 to 20 melee attacks seems to lack a frame of reference.
P+s 12 armor piercing is far superior to any p+s 20 attack you can play. Strictly counting out just raw damage the ap attack will average higher damage than the later with no need to boost to overcome armor.
Example:behemoth vs crusader with battle P+s12ap vs base arm 19 (average warjack) puts the attacker at dice +2 P+s20 vs base armor 19 (average warjack) puts the attacker at dice +1.
Bit the advantage starts to expand if you account for different scenerio.
P+s12 vs arm 19 with arcane sheild (arm 22) is dice - 1 P+s20 vs arm 19 with arcane sheild (arm 22) is dice - 1.
P+s12 vs arm 23 is dice at 0. P+s20 vs arm 23 is dice -3.
Now lets talk buffs.
Fury (chose as straight on buff) each example jacks changes the formula.
P+s15(f) vs arm 19 is dice +5 P+s23(f) vs arm 19 is dice +4
P+s15(f) vs arm 19(22as) is dice +2 P+s23(f) vs arm 19(22as) is dice +1
P+s15(f) vs arm23 is dice+3 P+s23(f) vs arm23 is dice at 0.
So yah averages are similar but behemoth still fets more damage weather it be 2 or 5 attacks extra damage is extra damage.
Behemoth is still to expensive for his output as many factions can get 2 jacks for his cost.
Also if i take the chiors battle out of the example used above. Behemoths game increases ever higher. Juggernaughts can not compete with him for pure damage with out support same support behemoth can have by the way.
Ret can produce a p+s 24 non colossal melee theat (p+s15, +3manticore ability, +2 caster buff, +2 concintrate power, +2 crush order) Cygnar can produce a p+s 24 non colossal melee threat. (P+s19, +3 caster buff, +2 crush order) Meanoth can produce a p+s 25 non colossal threat. (P+s18, +2 caster buff, +2 battle, +1 sevy 0, +2 crush) Khador has two options. (Ysh i jack marshal alot) Juggernaught at p+s 24 (p+s19, +3 fury, +2 crush order) Or Behemoth at p+s17 armor piercing (p+s12, +3 fury, +2 crush order)
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Post by michael on May 21, 2019 22:25:16 GMT
Would giving out heavy boilers to some of the jacks help? Making them essentially SPD5 when running. By and large, I truly believe most of our warjacks work. There are some screwy decisions here and there; that’s all. If I were king for a day, I’d: — Drop Black Ivan’s cost. 19 is ridiculous; 15 is about right. Of course, I think Harkevich needs a complete rework, because his entire kit appears in a single rule on the back of Kraye’s card... — Drop Behemoth back to 23, give him another point of ARM, bring back the “this is a ludicrously big warjack” feeling by giving him Massive or at the very least Sturdy (!), and add him to Armored Corps. — Juggernaut back to PC 12, because seriously. — Drago. Just...fix Drago. — Fix the entire Berserker chassis while we’re at it. It’s not a light warjack, stop trying to make it equivalent to a light warjack. Make it a budget PC 10 heavy and give both the Berserker and Mad Dog some sort of meaningful role and at least one ability that justifies the increased cost. — Mild tweak to the Decimator, as described earlier. — Something something Demolisher etc. I should go paint instead...
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Post by michael on May 21, 2019 22:31:23 GMT
the difference in p+s 12 armor piercing attacks vs p+s 19 to 20 melee attacks seems to lack a frame of reference. P+s 12 armor piercing is far superior to any p+s 20 attack you can play. Strictly counting out just raw damage the ap attack will average higher damage than the later with no need to boost to overcome armor. Example:behemoth vs crusader with battle P+s12ap vs base arm 19 (average warjack) puts the attacker at dice +2 P+s20 vs base armor 19 (average warjack) puts the attacker at dice +1. Bit the advantage starts to expand if you account for different scenerio. P+s12 vs arm 19 with arcane sheild (arm 22) is dice - 1 P+s20 vs arm 19 with arcane sheild (arm 22) is dice - 1. P+s12 vs arm 23 is dice at 0. P+s20 vs arm 23 is dice -3. Now lets talk buffs. Fury (chose as straight on buff) each example jacks changes the formula. P+s15(f) vs arm 19 is dice +5 P+s23(f) vs arm 19 is dice +4 P+s15(f) vs arm 19(22as) is dice +2 P+s23(f) vs arm 19(22as) is dice +1 P+s15(f) vs arm23 is dice+3 P+s23(f) vs arm23 is dice at 0. So yah averages are similar but behemoth still fets more damage weather it be 2 or 5 attacks extra damage is extra damage. Behemoth is still to expensive for his output as many factions can get 2 jacks for his cost. Also if i take the chiors battle out of the example used above. Behemoths game increases ever higher. Juggernaughts can not compete with him for pure damage with out support same support behemoth can have by the way. Ret can produce a p+s 24 non colossal melee theat (p+s15, +3manticore ability, +2 caster buff, +2 concintrate power, +2 crush order) Cygnar can produce a p+s 24 non colossal melee threat. (P+s19, +3 caster buff, +2 crush order) Meanoth can produce a p+s 25 non colossal threat. (P+s18, +2 caster buff, +2 battle, +1 sevy 0, +2 crush) Khador has two options. (Ysh i jack marshal alot) Juggernaught at p+s 24 (p+s19, +3 fury, +2 crush order) Or Behemoth at p+s17 armor piercing (p+s12, +3 fury, +2 crush order) Yes, yes, I didn’t feel like writing 20 paragraphs of context. But also you can have roughly equivalent or better Behemoth performance on cheaper to much cheaper non-character chassis in various factions. That’s what I’m getting at.
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Post by onijet01 on May 22, 2019 0:04:53 GMT
I agree of behemoth was a 21-23pt range he would see play over two destroyers.
Just like if avitar was 15-17 range he would be taken dispite not being a battlegroup model.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on May 22, 2019 5:34:52 GMT
Would giving out heavy boilers to some of the jacks help? Making them essentially SPD5 when running. By and large, I truly believe most of our warjacks work. There are some screwy decisions here and there; that’s all. If I were king for a day, I’d: — Drop Black Ivan’s cost. 19 is ridiculous; 15 is about right. Of course, I think Harkevich needs a complete rework, because his entire kit appears in a single rule on the back of Kraye’s card... — Drop Behemoth back to 23, give him another point of ARM, bring back the “this is a ludicrously big warjack” feeling by giving him Massive or at the very least Sturdy (!), and add him to Armored Corps. — Juggernaut back to PC 12, because seriously. — Drago. Just...fix Drago. — Fix the entire Berserker chassis while we’re at it. It’s not a light warjack, stop trying to make it equivalent to a light warjack. Make it a budget PC 10 heavy and give both the Berserker and Mad Dog some sort of meaningful role and at least one ability that justifies the increased cost. — Mild tweak to the Decimator, as described earlier. — Something something Demolisher etc. I should go paint instead... I agree man but just go paint. no point in putting a lot of work in to screaming at a stopsign
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Post by onijet01 on May 22, 2019 6:31:55 GMT
Beserker chasis are fine as they are. What they need is each model needs on free movment ability.
Beserker - agressive Mad Dog - has free tramples Rager - vengence move
They are also over 200 year old warjacks. Technology evolves over time bigger stronger morw durable.
But drago.
Take away its unstable and make its bond with vlad to were it gains an additional die on melee attack rolls. (Abuse that crit amputation
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Post by borderprince on May 22, 2019 7:11:19 GMT
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on May 22, 2019 9:07:10 GMT
I have just different venues, politics etc.. people have opinions and biases that no matter your facts, their mind is made up. what is the point of arguing with someone who is not listening to you
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Post by borderprince on May 22, 2019 9:44:31 GMT
I have just different venues, politics etc.. people have opinions and biases that no matter your facts, their mind is made up. what is the point of arguing with someone who is not listening to you I think you have missed the link in my post - try it and see...
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Post by hocestbellum on May 22, 2019 10:20:24 GMT
Thoroughly enjoyed that game! Big fan of the pen and paper it's based on, too
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on May 22, 2019 10:33:48 GMT
Ravnos all the way bruh!
Anyway point is that there is no real point to making the effort, pp is gonna do what they want..
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Post by sand20go on May 23, 2019 20:26:40 GMT
the difference in p+s 12 armor piercing attacks vs p+s 19 to 20 melee attacks seems to lack a frame of reference. P+s 12 armor piercing is far superior to any p+s 20 attack you can play. Strictly counting out just raw damage the ap attack will average higher damage than the later with no need to boost to overcome armor. Example:behemoth vs crusader with battle P+s12ap vs base arm 19 (average warjack) puts the attacker at dice +2 P+s20 vs base armor 19 (average warjack) puts the attacker at dice +1. Bit the advantage starts to expand if you account for different scenerio. P+s12 vs arm 19 with arcane sheild (arm 22) is dice - 1 P+s20 vs arm 19 with arcane sheild (arm 22) is dice - 1. P+s12 vs arm 23 is dice at 0. P+s20 vs arm 23 is dice -3. Now lets talk buffs. Fury (chose as straight on buff) each example jacks changes the formula. P+s15(f) vs arm 19 is dice +5 P+s23(f) vs arm 19 is dice +4 P+s15(f) vs arm 19(22as) is dice +2 P+s23(f) vs arm 19(22as) is dice +1 P+s15(f) vs arm23 is dice+3 P+s23(f) vs arm23 is dice at 0. So yah averages are similar but behemoth still fets more damage weather it be 2 or 5 attacks extra damage is extra damage. Behemoth is still to expensive for his output as many factions can get 2 jacks for his cost. Also if i take the chiors battle out of the example used above. Behemoths game increases ever higher. Juggernaughts can not compete with him for pure damage with out support same support behemoth can have by the way. Ret can produce a p+s 24 non colossal melee theat (p+s15, +3manticore ability, +2 caster buff, +2 concintrate power, +2 crush order) Cygnar can produce a p+s 24 non colossal melee threat. (P+s19, +3 caster buff, +2 crush order) Meanoth can produce a p+s 25 non colossal threat. (P+s18, +2 caster buff, +2 battle, +1 sevy 0, +2 crush) Khador has two options. (Ysh i jack marshal alot) Juggernaught at p+s 24 (p+s19, +3 fury, +2 crush order) Or Behemoth at p+s17 armor piercing (p+s12, +3 fury, +2 crush order) The benchmark I use is one rounding a railless. Lets go to buy vs. boost and find out what happens......
Behemoth (25 points) needing 1 focus to charge (see below). So 2 initials and 2 buys. 70.7% chance of one rounding it With a free charge 95.1%
Molik Karn (19) with 2 initials and 3 boughts - 23% HOWEVER with a Paingiver Beast Handler (5 points - so still under Behemoth) - 92.4% chance (assumes B2B for the free charge and then the strength fix.
Now yes - Molik is squisher but the combination of Hyperaggressive, higher speed, 2 inch reach, sidestep as a bond benefit, his tasty ability to fix dice with fate walker makes him, straight up, even WITH the PBH tax (cause 24<25) a flat out better option.....and PBH is so autoinclude and has 4 models so it isn't like they are ONLY giving the Molik Missle this.
Or Consider the Stalker (17 points). Warping Strength and if a free charge - 51% chance of taking out the Railless. Again, faster, longer reach (on the sword), So for 17+Layness (21 vs. 25) you get a package that is almost as good as Behemoth in taking out our benchmark and we have saved 4 points.
Turning to warmachine. With Concentrated power and free charge Imperatus goes up to 63.1% chance to kill it. Without free 19.7.
Avatar of Menoth - 19% chance with a free charge. However, add in a choir of Battle and fully loaded.....98%.
To me what these things mean is, again, Khador as the A- faction. Behemoth is great at ENSURING the Railless is dead but in some ways it is overkill. Circle has a better than 50/50% of killing it with just a non-character jack and a way of applying Hunters Mark. Molik nearly does the same and with the possibility of side step can help himself if he spikes by applying some damage elsewhere in contract with 1 inch sad face behemoth.
It is math like the above that drives me BONKERS about Khador criticism and then they do things like apply the nerf stick.
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Post by Korianneder on May 23, 2019 20:50:56 GMT
Yea math like this drives me bonkers too. You hand wave the differences between behemoth and molik karn and leave out the fact behemoth has two really good guns.
Then you say the stalker is almost as likely to kill it, if he gets a free charge, as behemoth without a free charge but the difference between the stalker and behemoth is only 2% less than the difference of behemoth and molik karn. Not including the percentage of landing the hunters mark and having the positioning of the hunters mark.
Did you also take in the fact that the avatar only gets full focus 33% of the time unless you add in vassals? Or that behemoth can get a free charge in any list with sorcha0? How is imperatus getting a free charge? Most ret players dont use lanyssa as their merc model because they want sylas or eiryss.
Does behemoth need to be a little cheaper? Sure. But your bias is showing as much as the people that complain about khador models.
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Post by sand20go on May 23, 2019 22:52:47 GMT
Yea math like this drives me bonkers too. You hand wave the differences between behemoth and molik karn and leave out the fact behemoth has two really good guns. Then you say the stalker is almost as likely to kill it, if he gets a free charge, as behemoth without a free charge but the difference between the stalker and behemoth is only 2% less than the difference of behemoth and molik karn. Not including the percentage of landing the hunters mark and having the positioning of the hunters mark. Did you also take in the fact that the avatar only gets full focus 33% of the time unless you add in vassals? Or that behemoth can get a free charge in any list with sorcha0? How is imperatus getting a free charge? Most ret players dont use lanyssa as their merc model because they want sylas or eiryss. Does behemoth need to be a little cheaper? Sure. But your bias is showing as much as the people that complain about khador models. POW 14 isn't that good a gun. If you are using 25 points for a gun platform that is 25 wasted points. As a famous line goes from Star wars - it is a trap. Essentially a cost for an ability which is problematic to use. Yes. SOMETIMES you will - but in many cases Behemoth needs to be running Bottom of 1. He MIGHT get to move and shoot top of 2. Unlikely Bottom of 2 since you really will need him into the mix or at least threatening his MIGHTY unspeed boosted threat of 7 huge inches.
In almost all cases, a hunters mark on a DEF 9 railless hits 35/36 times. I can not think of a hunters mark user that is less than Rat/Magic 6.
Sorscha0 is only going to be free in Jaws - a theme that has significant issues.
Most ret players are not ALL ret players. Indeed, in many Forges lists Lanyssa is a good choice.
I am glad you see that a 25 point character jack is overcosted in the new theme world.
Staler
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Post by Korianneder on May 24, 2019 0:34:23 GMT
Yea math like this drives me bonkers too. You hand wave the differences between behemoth and molik karn and leave out the fact behemoth has two really good guns. Then you say the stalker is almost as likely to kill it, if he gets a free charge, as behemoth without a free charge but the difference between the stalker and behemoth is only 2% less than the difference of behemoth and molik karn. Not including the percentage of landing the hunters mark and having the positioning of the hunters mark. Did you also take in the fact that the avatar only gets full focus 33% of the time unless you add in vassals? Or that behemoth can get a free charge in any list with sorcha0? How is imperatus getting a free charge? Most ret players dont use lanyssa as their merc model because they want sylas or eiryss. Does behemoth need to be a little cheaper? Sure. But your bias is showing as much as the people that complain about khador models. POW 14 isn't that good a gun. If you are using 25 points for a gun platform that is 25 wasted points. As a famous line goes from Star wars - it is a trap. Essentially a cost for an ability which is problematic to use. Yes. SOMETIMES you will - but in many cases Behemoth needs to be running Bottom of 1. He MIGHT get to move and shoot top of 2. Unlikely Bottom of 2 since you really will need him into the mix or at least threatening his MIGHTY unspeed boosted threat of 7 huge inches.
In almost all cases, a hunters mark on a DEF 9 railless hits 35/36 times. I can not think of a hunters mark user that is less than Rat/Magic 6.
Sorscha0 is only going to be free in Jaws - a theme that has significant issues.
Most ret players are not ALL ret players. Indeed, in many Forges lists Lanyssa is a good choice.
I am glad you see that a 25 point character jack is overcosted in the new theme world.
Staler
Rng 14, Pow 14, aoe 4, powerful attack, arcing fire is a good gun. Even at rat 4. Doubly so with two of them. No, them alone are not worth 25 points, and as mentioned I said Behemoth was overcosted, but denying the usefulness of them is just counter productive. 35/36 isn't guaranteed. Using your stats that brings the chance of a warpwolf down from 51% to 49.6% which means the difference between Behemoth without a free charge and warpwolf with a free charge to 21.1 % in Behemoth's favor which is only .6% less than the difference between Behemoth without a free charge and Molik Karn with free charge and enrage. If a warpwolf + hunter's mark is almost as good as Behemoth then Behemoth is almost as good as Molik + paingivers. Sorsha0 is 4 points, same cost as Lanyssa, Blackclad Wayfarer, and less than a min unit of paingivers. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Jaws the only theme force that allows Behemoth anyway? So wouldn't she be free in every theme that allows Behemoth?
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