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Post by sand20go on May 13, 2019 18:31:09 GMT
Now this is NOT one of my typical San Female Dog fests. I am returning from a long hiatus from Butcher3 and I know my game play with the list is improving. And I know that Huge bases can be his bug a boo.
Lost twice Saturday and that makes about 8 in a row......
Here is the list
[Butcher 3] Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed [+22]
- Kodiak [13]
- Marauder [11]
- Ruin [17]
- Greylord Adjunct [0(4)]
Kovnik Andrei Malakov [0(4)]
- Victor [34]
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)]
- Rager [10]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Widowmaker Marksman [4]
Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]
Losses on Saturday were into Issyia. She used the two sleds and Imperatus (15 inch threat) to good effect. Bad dice - the Victor missed THREE attacks into one of the Tridents and Kodiak couldn't kill the other one. But that said, it is hard to get the piece trading going in the right direction here - the Sleds are surprisingly effective under S&P with bostable POW 13s and a 13 inch charge threat (as long as my longest).
The other was to Locke under Convergence. After accepting the alpha (as long as he road to wars and tags something with the diffuser he out threats me and I have to play cagey because of pull and pound shots from the Prime) I Removed Prime Axioms and 2 Invertors. But I had to spend a ton of focus to do so. With Butcher camping just one it was trivially easy for Locke to counter with a bunch of jackhammers. Could have made it more dicey if Orin had stayed close - I THINK he could have been in position to deny the spell - but Maybe not.
There are some other jack load outs that I could do - one being trying to get a Devastator into it at the likely expense of the mechanics. That also, I think, would allow me to be even more aggressive with Butcher - in both Saturday games I was a bit too worried about shooting and so when I triggered vengeance a forest game me a bit of fits in respect to how to get around it.
Thoughts? I really do need, right now in our meta, huge base solutions. Seems like every list has at least one if not multiples.
PS. I have considered sticking with my Vlad2 Wolves list but dropping into CG, Retribution and Double Immortals (aka lists that have at least 2 or more huge bases) something really odd like Vlad1 with ALL the Rockets and then S0 to help with additional BC to minimize focus drain... conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0f76kTkTnjlOkZ8t7R7T7W7R7T7W7X7Vi6Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand !!! This list has an unused free card. [Vladimir 1] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Prince [+28] - Marauder [11] - Marauder [11] - Greylord Adjunct [4] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Rager [10] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Infantry (min) [6] - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (min) [8] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (2) [4] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17] |
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Post by auraco on May 13, 2019 19:20:23 GMT
The Vlad list isn't actually legal, you have 6 unused battlegroup points, which is not something the rules allow. You can't pay for the adjunct with battlegroup points.
My best advice is jsut don't play Butcher3 in jaws, I think it's a terrible theme for him. I really like him in Winterguard Kommand, but I've heard good comments about him in armored corps and I would clearly try him in armored corps before running him in jaws. Also Butcher3's kit makes him a poor drop into gunlines, so I'm really not sold on him trying to go up against crucible guard.
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Post by sand20go on May 13, 2019 20:23:06 GMT
The Vlad list isn't actually legal, you have 6 unused battlegroup points, which is not something the rules allow. You can't pay for the adjunct with battlegroup points. My best advice is jsut don't play Butcher3 in jaws, I think it's a terrible theme for him. I really like him in Winterguard Kommand, but I've heard good comments about him in armored corps and I would clearly try him in armored corps before running him in jaws. Also Butcher3's kit makes him a poor drop into gunlines, so I'm really not sold on him trying to go up against crucible guard. Thanks. I knew I stopped too soon building out that Vlad1 list.
Retribution is also a LOT of shooting with the Sled. Ridiculous amount of infantry clearing so I don't think WGI works (at all) for it unless you are bringning them just for bodies - and then you are paying for S0 and Andy2. I think you NEED them (or at least S0) because you really need to project a threat 13 inches or you will get kitted to death. You HAVE to track down the Railess and the Sled or you are going to lose.
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Post by auraco on May 13, 2019 22:19:57 GMT
That pretty much brings us back to what I'm saying, Butcher3 is a poor drop into gunlines. Armored corps might help with that, but it will still never be optimal. When you're playing with butcher3 you have no tools to protect against shooting and you're playing points down because of his low number of jack pts, he's the one you need to leverage to get work done, but he's still vulnerable so if you play him too forward he'll get shot to death and if you don't play him foward enough you'll just lose the attrition battle, that's why he makes a poor gunline drop.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 14, 2019 11:30:05 GMT
What about trying something with a bit more control instead of trying to butt heads with the huge bases?
Thinking stuff like Zerkova1 or Old Witch1 for example.
Cheers,
Dave
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Post by hocestbellum on May 14, 2019 12:01:02 GMT
What about trying something with a bit more control instead of trying to butt heads with the huge bases? Thinking stuff like Zerkova1 or Old Witch1 for example. Cheers, Dave Whilst I'm always keen for people to play OW1, what control does she bring against huge bases? |
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Post by borderprince on May 14, 2019 12:22:53 GMT
Retribution is also a LOT of shooting with the Sled. Ridiculous amount of infantry clearing so I don't think WGI works (at all) for it unless you are bringning them just for bodies - and then you are paying for S0 and Andy2. I think you NEED them (or at least S0) because you really need to project a threat 13 inches or you will get kitted to death. You HAVE to track down the Railess and the Sled or you are going to lose. You don't have to pay for Sorscha0 in WGK - she's a Winterguard solo, so can be a free choice.
I'd agree about needing the long threat range though.
I was wondering about Zerkova1 too. Put her in a list that can protect her getting close and the feat gives you lots of control.
Would Karchev (+ Sorscha0) be an option? You can get the 13" threat (albeit conditionally) and still have a caster who is less passive than Vlad1 (probably important if you like Butcher3). Provided you give the rest of the list options for taking out solos, support units and the like, you probably can trigger Road to War on a crucial turn, even in lists that are heavy on huge bases. With Karchev's feat, a single fully loaded Marauder with Boundless Charge can get over 50 damage into a huge base on fairly average rolls. So you might only need one or two successful kills to leverage Road to War to get what you want.
If you do go Vlad1, I'd seriously think about at least three Marauders (two have then got decent odds of making it to feat turn without a missing arm).
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Post by hocestbellum on May 14, 2019 12:35:59 GMT
Winterguard solos aren't free in WGK; the list is command attachments, weapon teams, or the Artillery Kaptain
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Post by borderprince on May 14, 2019 14:19:29 GMT
Winterguard solos aren't free in WGK; the list is command attachments, weapon teams, or the Artillery Kaptain Kids - this is why you should always check your sources, rather than working from memory or what someone on the internet says!
Mea cupla, mea not quite maxima culpa.
Although Sorscha0 does contribute to free points in WGK, so pay for her and get something else work 4 (or 5 points) instead.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 14, 2019 15:09:58 GMT
Whilst I'm always keen for people to play OW1, what control does she bring against huge bases? My thought was using Murder of Crows and terrain to limit line of sight mostly. Also the feat should stop stuff like the accompanying trancers and halberdiers, so deals with other aspects of the list well. I'm sure there'll be some guidance kicking around though, so something will be able to see. But at least some of the ranged elements should be prevented from contributing each turn. Cheers, Dave |
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 14, 2019 19:24:25 GMT
Winterguard solos aren't free in WGK; the list is command attachments, weapon teams, or the Artillery Kaptain We all wish. The only reason this makes sense is as an historical anachronism. As for Butcher 3, when did Butcher 3 WGK stop being good into gunlines? This is my B3 drop now, but confess I haven’t tried it into double space ticks or doubled Derp turtles. War Room Army Khador - Butcher 3 WGK Sorscha & GC Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 4 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 |
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Post by sand20go on May 14, 2019 20:07:46 GMT
Winterguard solos aren't free in WGK; the list is command attachments, weapon teams, or the Artillery Kaptain We all wish. The only reason this makes sense is as an historical anachronism. As for Butcher 3, when did Butcher 3 WGK stop being good into gunlines? This is my B3 drop now, but confess I haven’t tried it into double space ticks or doubled Derp turtles. War Room Army Khador - Butcher 3 WGK Sorscha & GC Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Marauder - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff - PC: 4 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Mortar Crew - Gunner & Grunt: 0 I will give it a go.
But here is the math that is worth thinking about from Buy or Boost. This looks at my latest match up (Issyria) and asks the question - How likely is it for 2 Tridents (aka Sleds) to one round the Fun Carriage under feat (we assume that, as well, Imperatus has killed the bait jack thus meaning you are trading the fun carriage plus a jack for imperatus, her feat and scenario relevancy. I will assume the sled has max power tokens.
According to Bvs Boost double sleds that roll up 6 shots (so average) and have 3 power tokens each have a 70.9% chance of one rounding the fun carriage (and of course, repoing back to 13 inches away). Meanwhile.....
If you put all three shots from the fun carriage AND all 6 rockets into the thing you have a 0.2% chance of shooting a trident off the table. This assumes no force barrier up - something that might happen if he wants to risk not having power tokens. A mortar gets up up to 4%.
So no....playing WGIK Butcher 3 into a gun line with huge bases is NOT a good idea.
PS. Underscoring the A-Minus nature of Khador (it really is true), the sled is a POINT LESS than the fun carriage, provides threat extension on a stick and (as above) significantly more difficult to pin down.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 14, 2019 21:46:07 GMT
To put a slightly different spin on it; if you've lost 8 games in a row with B3 Jaws, what have you got to lose by trying WGK?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932 
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Post by Ganso on May 14, 2019 23:04:57 GMT
Hey San, what is stoping you from just winning on scenario? Seems to me like you are adamant on trading pieces regardless of the scenario game. Scoring with Butcher_3 army should be straight forward (my highest scoring games in Kingdom Con were with B3).
If Trancers are your only problem, then I think you may need to recalibrate your assessment of them, sure they're annoying if left unchecked, but it's not like they are that hard to remove (Combo smiting a Rising straight at them with a Marauder is pretty effective and fun)
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on May 15, 2019 1:45:25 GMT
I don't think Victor is the right jack for B3. He wants ruin (and if you can get s0, then Beast09). You need a solid 6 jacks, which Victor takes up too much space.
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