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Post by sand20go on May 6, 2019 16:32:11 GMT
Now lets start with the fact that there is GOOD pilot skills here. Like ATC captain skills and I am just basically a scrub. But I would like to hear people's thoughts on how they might approach what they think is a good build into this. Below this list is my current "summer test build" which I THINK will have game but requires my opponent, I think, to make a positioning mistake to win which isn't what I would bank on.
conflictchamber.com/?cf201b_-12l8ltlblulF7jlH7kfClElElklkiBlDldldCrucible Guard Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Magnum Opus [Syvestro 1] Aurum Adeptus Syvestro [+28] - Liberator [10] - Suppressor [13] - Toro [13] - Aurum Ominus Alyce Marc [0(5)] Anastasia di Bray [3] Crucible Guard Mechanik [2] Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist [4] Hutchuk, Ogrun Bounty Hunter [0(6)] Trancer [3] Trancer [3] Dragon's Breath Rocket [0(5)] Dragon's Breath Rocket [5] Steelhead Halberdiers (max) [11] - Doctor Alejandro Mosby [4] Railless Interceptor [16] Railless Interceptor [16]
A few observations so you don't have to look up cards. +2 to starting roll and with Superfuel and running the list has a huge board positioning advantage. Trancers are there for annoying ways of contesting and moving you off of scenario. Railless are very easily capable of kiting you - and with Hutch, Gorman and the Supressor very likely to have things oiled and, if so, able to remove a full up Khador Jack on feat turn. Assuming Jaws (I think the answer) DBRs are there to keep casters honest - because a debuffed caster is likely a dead caster on feat turn. Halbies+Mosby there just to be exceedingly irritating. Toro for Toro. Liberator also there to keep you honest and threaten assissination on squishy caster.
Here is what I tried yesterday.
conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0xdI7skTnmhFe3f8lOkZ7y8r86Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Butcher 3] Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Kodiak [13] - Marauder [11] - Ruin [17] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Andrei Malakov [0(4)] - Victor [34] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [0(4)] - Rager [10] Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5] Widowmaker Marksman [4] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Not "bad" but it really does mean I have to take the Victor and put it out as bait (something I didn't do yesterday) and then HOPE that after Butcher eats everything that is put into the Victor (such as the Toro and 2/3 of the Halbies) that he lives.
Now I am thinking that for a variety of reasons I am going to put COnquest rather than Victor into the list. Need to find the point but I think this is better because it provides with creeping barrage a better way of forcing the Toro to have to come in. That is true with a number of other match ups - for example Immortals. While still need 8s I will roll some of them and deny the charges. Just in general the Conquest is better on clearing infantry - something that I need to be sure the list can do. Not sure how to make the points work - probably Kodiak downgrade.
But thoughts? CG frustrates me right now - especially in the hands of a skilled pilot because it hits a khador weakness - our vulnerability to a kitting list that can put out good damage at range.
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Post by Valcaro on May 6, 2019 16:55:14 GMT
There are a few points, which help with that particularly difficult matchup.
First and foremost: Devastators
They are very annoying to deal with, even for a Grucible Guard player, because they force the application of debuffs to be able to tackle them at all. Which in turn you can trade for better board positioning or straight up trade one for a Toro or Railless. If you can make sure, that trancers can't slam them too far away (or at all), you can really screw with the scenario pressure that CG likes to put up. I'd probably recommend a pair of those.
Second: Since it's Sylvestro, you're up against defensive and offensive Transmutation as well as the most annoying anti-melee spell in the game: Admonition. This is the point where you probably need eilish who can relieve a bit of the burden playing against that. Since we're talking ATC Level of skill, it's pretty unlikely that you will ever dispel anything, but his mere presence dictates quite a bit of positioning. Will probably be difficult, keeping him alive, but I think it's worth it.
Third point: Victor
You are considering swapping him for Conquest (which is not bad at all) but Vicky is the only one, who can more or less reliably threaten the buffing backline of the CG army: Mechanics, Alyce, Doc Morley and Gorman. Often times losing a Mechanik means the CG player has to cycle Transmutation on one of the Jcks to get stuff done, so that's a ressource win for you. I'd probably keep the Victor and go fishing for good deviations. You might consider switching to WGK for the artillerist and sweet advance moves. Also Sac Pawns do help against sprays, even if there are so many against you.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 6, 2019 20:01:06 GMT
I've not played into Syvestro since the models were released, so I could be way off base here, but I don't really see why you're running Viktor, or Jaws. If you're looking for troop clearing and support hitting, go WGK. 20" threat high explosive blasts from a 5pt model are not something that the mass of squishy support can really ignore, and if no opportunity presents itself you can aim and hit the Railless on a 5.
You could take the Fun Carriage and punt his Trancers wherever you want, and you've got a 21" threat into his support models. Just the basic WGI are quite annoying. Sure, they're easy for that sea of blasts to deal with, but they're also cheap as chips and hit hard enough to cause his jacks some issues.
The theme benefits are perfect for B3 and for jacks who are getting pressured out of scenario.
I'll admit to some bias here; I think Jaws is our worst theme, and I avoid playing it. I think it's probably only our third best jack-heavy theme. Anything Jaws can do, WGK does better.
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Post by sand20go on May 6, 2019 20:26:07 GMT
I've not played into Syvestro since the models were released, so I could be way off base here, but I don't really see why you're running Viktor, or Jaws. If you're looking for troop clearing and support hitting, go WGK. 20" threat high explosive blasts from a 5pt model are not something that the mass of squishy support can really ignore, and if no opportunity presents itself you can aim and hit the Railless on a 5. You could take the Fun Carriage and punt his Trancers wherever you want, and you've got a 21" threat into his support models. Just the basic WGI are quite annoying. Sure, they're easy for that sea of blasts to deal with, but they're also cheap as chips and hit hard enough to cause his jacks some issues. The theme benefits are perfect for B3 and for jacks who are getting pressured out of scenario. I'll admit to some bias here; I think Jaws is our worst theme, and I avoid playing it. I think it's probably only our third best jack-heavy theme. Anything Jaws can do, WGK does better. A) A big part of his list is the ambush. So absent bunching EVERYTHING up you are looking at Anatasia and Hutchuck coming in on turn 2. Now not a huge deal but that is denied to him in Jaws. Essentially you are trading no Ambush for the Advanced move.
B) Railess isn't about blast is is about spraying for Days. Without Bob and Weave (why is that gone? Damm you PP) you are looking at Rat6 vs. Def 12. Then consider the feat. It is trivially easy for the CG player to remove oodles of models. PERHAPS in a full stalingrad build you can get it done but I am not sure - the rockets are dice -7 on the railess so putting in largely chip damage for one turn and then they die. Also depending on DB you can probably anticipate some of the are not tough.
C) An advantage WGK has though is adding to Butcher's survability (at least until all the WG die). It might get you through a turn - especially given how SacPawn works against Sprays. That would definitely be the trick though - being really agressive with Butcher and trying to keep A LOT of WG just within 3 of him so you could really sac off the stuff but no TOO close because you don't want to simply let him spray down all your sac pawn stuff.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 6, 2019 20:59:54 GMT
1) Really? Anastasia is there for the +1 on the starting roll. As long as you stay more than 15" from the edge of the board (leaving you a narrow foot-and-a-half window) she is nothing scary. I think Hutchuck threatens about the same, but at least he has the possibility of doing something useful when he comes on. Stopping them ambushing at the expense of advance move on your slowest most vital models is a poor trade.
2) Don't run them like that then. You could just take a dozen for as many points to use as a) 12 shield guards, b) two contesting units, c) two Advanced Moves, and d) almost a free Weapon crew. That's 75% of the cost of just one of his interceptors. Also, if your opponent uses his feat to take out your conscripts in your B3 jack list then he's playing into your hands.
I'm not saying it's a magic bullet solution; you're playing an extremely good opponent using a tournament-level list. But I will always recommend WGK over Jaws.
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Post by sand20go on May 6, 2019 21:57:42 GMT
1) Really? Anastasia is there for the +1 on the starting roll. As long as you stay more than 15" from the edge of the board (leaving you a narrow foot-and-a-half window) she is nothing scary. I think Hutchuck threatens about the same, but at least he has the possibility of doing something useful when he comes on. Stopping them ambushing at the expense of advance move on your slowest most vital models is a poor trade. 2) Don't run them like that then. You could just take a dozen for as many points to use as a) 12 shield guards, b) two contesting units, c) two Advanced Moves, and d) almost a free Weapon crew. That's 75% of the cost of just one of his interceptors. Also, if your opponent uses his feat to take out your conscripts in your B3 jack list then he's playing into your hands. I'm not saying it's a magic bullet solution; you're playing an extremely good opponent using a tournament-level list. But I will always recommend WGK over Jaws. Annie's job is to also contest as well as pose a threat if you don't deal with her. Light breeze squishy but need to hit her and she will be stealthed. It is all about kitting - get your ambushes in and then hit you over and over with the Raillesses while you slog up the field ;-) But I have thought about doing WGK - in part because the Fun Carriage is gold against halbies if you can afford to get SoD onto it - plus it also out threats (with BC) the Trancers - allow you to not sorry about what happens after they blow up and it is nice to force "chocies" with the Rough terrain.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 8, 2019 10:31:04 GMT
Not played against CG yet, but this is my current B3 Jaws list:
Jaws of the Wolf
Butcher3 +22
-War Argus
-War Argus
-Juggernaut -13
-Kodiak -13
-Kodiak -13
-Marauder -11
-Ruin -17
Greylord Forge Seer -0(4)
Greylord Forge Seer -0(4)
Hutchuck, Ogrun Bounty Hunter -6
Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff -4
-Rager -10
Yuri the Axe -0(6)
Kayazy Eliminators -5
Kayazy Eliminators -5
Any thoughts of that into Sylvestro?
Cheers,
Dave
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Post by sand20go on May 8, 2019 21:55:22 GMT
Not played against CG yet, but this is my current B3 Jaws list: Jaws of the WolfButcher3 +22 -War Argus -War Argus -Juggernaut -13 -Kodiak -13 -Kodiak -13 -Marauder -11 -Ruin -17 Greylord Forge Seer -0(4) Greylord Forge Seer -0(4) Hutchuck, Ogrun Bounty Hunter -6 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff -4 -Rager -10 Yuri the Axe -0(6) Kayazy Eliminators -5 Kayazy Eliminators -5 Any thoughts of that into Sylvestro? Cheers, Dave It could work. Eliminators and Yuri feel dead weight if soley against CG because they are going to get a lot of love from the DBRs and from the gun shot on the Raillesses who don't have a ton else to shoot at and the Sprays ignore stealth. I like kodiaks' here - both for the cloud wall to help Butcher as well as to deal with the Trancers in an efficient fashion. That said, I would guess your Kodiaks that are close enough to charge and vent steam are, instead, getting charged and slammed by the trancers. That just is what it is since they out threat you. I like Hutchuck for ambush/contest - that helps so Butcher can play a bit of a plodding game. That said, what you lose is Orin. A pretty common Sylvestro assassination run starts with him running his arc node, feating, and then spamming spells at you until you are blind. Then the DBR to autohit you, then sprays for days. Order of activation issues (no superfuel and running) but it is still a 22 inch threat on on the S. Abyss. Orin helps here.
But I think the biggest issue I see is how you are going to deal with the Hablies? THey are VERY capable with Transmutation (best infantry spell in the game) and Mosby's elixer of strength and overtake to remove a kodiak and more. THey will out threat your kodiak. And so you are spending points here that you don't have. Eliminators can take on that duty but again, they are going to be a prime target. Then, if they DO get in and do work, a pretty common way of dealing with them is either sprays, trancers OR simply walking around behind them and CMA'ing them under feat. 2 mans should do it.
So if this was going to be my CG list I would think about......
1) What can I put in to deal with Halbies? Does Butcher himself need to be that guy? If so, how do I hold the other flank (see discussion above about devestators and the advantages on that front)
2) Can I deal with kitting Railless in an efficient fashion? What can get back there, how much is needed and can I weather the output as I do so. Put another way - if run aggressively to force him out of zones, are you able to absorb the damage from Feated Raillesses with enough left over to punish in return. #protip - Ruin requires Silence of death to have a 50/50 shot at taking out a railless. Unbuffed he will need some significant spikes.
3) Do I like my support package. Butcher 3 lists need to deliver butcher. I think there is a Strong argument to be made that there are advantages in layering on support for him, even in the world of themes....from a cloud from the adjunct to orin to other stuff.
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Post by borderprince on May 9, 2019 8:30:13 GMT
Serious question, but how wedded to Butcher3 are you? This may be a personal playstyle point.
I've been having fun with Vlad1 in WGK + Sorscha0 - 14" threat on 2 Marauders on feat turn (feat + Boundless from Sorscha) is great, and each Marauder can still be allocated a Focus to give them 4 attacks when they arrive, under S&P. That should take out a Railless each. S&P helps deal with DEF buffs from Transmutation (as does Joe), and in a pinch Windwall gives more protection from shooting.
List as it stands is:
Vlad1
-Juggernaut
-Marauder
-Marauder
-Adjunct
WGI (max) + UA
WGRC (min) + 3 rockets
Mortar (free)
Mortar (free)
Gun Carriage
Kovnik Joe
Sorscha0
-Marauder
Major, major weakness is pathfinder, or its total absence. But I think I do need the Juggernaut for games against battlegroup heavier lists that aren't using huge bases, so no Kodiak as a replacement. I might try WGI in place of the Rifles/Rockets, but I suspect the rockets would make handy Trancer snipers (Joe + S&P (and aim if required) gives them decent odds of one hit kills).
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Post by steeltitan on May 9, 2019 10:20:59 GMT
Not played against CG yet, but this is my current B3 Jaws list: Jaws of the WolfButcher3 +22 -War Argus -War Argus -Juggernaut -13 -Kodiak -13 -Kodiak -13 -Marauder -11 -Ruin -17 Greylord Forge Seer -0(4) Greylord Forge Seer -0(4) Hutchuck, Ogrun Bounty Hunter -6 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff -4 -Rager -10 Yuri the Axe -0(6) Kayazy Eliminators -5 Kayazy Eliminators -5 Any thoughts of that into Sylvestro? Cheers, Dave It could work. Eliminators and Yuri feel dead weight if soley against CG because they are going to get a lot of love from the DBRs and from the gun shot on the Raillesses who don't have a ton else to shoot at and the Sprays ignore stealth. I like kodiaks' here - both for the cloud wall to help Butcher as well as to deal with the Trancers in an efficient fashion. That said, I would guess your Kodiaks that are close enough to charge and vent steam are, instead, getting charged and slammed by the trancers. That just is what it is since they out threat you. I like Hutchuck for ambush/contest - that helps so Butcher can play a bit of a plodding game. That said, what you lose is Orin. A pretty common Sylvestro assassination run starts with him running his arc node, feating, and then spamming spells at you until you are blind. Then the DBR to autohit you, then sprays for days. Order of activation issues (no superfuel and running) but it is still a 22 inch threat on on the S. Abyss. Orin helps here. But I think the biggest issue I see is how you are going to deal with the Hablies? THey are VERY capable with Transmutation (best infantry spell in the game) and Mosby's elixer of strength and overtake to remove a kodiak and more. THey will out threat your kodiak. And so you are spending points here that you don't have. Eliminators can take on that duty but again, they are going to be a prime target. Then, if they DO get in and do work, a pretty common way of dealing with them is either sprays, trancers OR simply walking around behind them and CMA'ing them under feat. 2 mans should do it.
So if this was going to be my CG list I would think about...... 1) What can I put in to deal with Halbies? Does Butcher himself need to be that guy? If so, how do I hold the other flank (see discussion above about devestators and the advantages on that front) 2) Can I deal with kitting Railless in an efficient fashion? What can get back there, how much is needed and can I weather the output as I do so. Put another way - if run aggressively to force him out of zones, are you able to absorb the damage from Feated Raillesses with enough left over to punish in return. #protip - Ruin requires Silence of death to have a 50/50 shot at taking out a railless. Unbuffed he will need some significant spikes. 3) Do I like my support package. Butcher 3 lists need to deliver butcher. I think there is a Strong argument to be made that there are advantages in layering on support for him, even in the world of themes....from a cloud from the adjunct to orin to other stuff.
My most regular opponent plays CG and out of those games, he played Syvestro most...I've written a few lengthy posts about CG and match-ups and other members have written good parts about it as well...so refer to those for more info. When facing CG, I wouldn't be comfortable running just one Marauder. With access to Silence of Death, they are good enough to crack decent armour versus other lists and multiple Marauders is just very good against CG. Kodiaks are good though. It's an option to deal with Trancers to some extent. I've written something about it before: So, not perfect but when your opponent makes a mistake or he commits the Trancer to something else closer, it's nice. To echo what Sand20go already said, Eliminators to me are just bad versus CG. They have access to Guidance and all the sprays and reliable hitting just makes them inferior versus other things you could take. They were one of the first things I dropped after a few games versus CG. I also love Devastators vs CG. In another thread I wrote: Why is Hutchuk in your list? I would prefer Alexia2 who I will soon add to my list myself. I think she's a very strong addition to our scenario play, especially if you don't have many models to contest with (common in Jaws)...extra true for far away zones or flags. I think Jaws is a good pick versus CG. Taking away Ambush versus an army that will almost always have Hutchuk and Anastasia is good. Sure, one of the main reasons to take Anastasia is the +1 but that doesn't mean she's very good to contest your zone and you simply don't have that many models to pull away from the main fighting to go and deal with her. Until now, losing on scenario vs CG has been a bigger problem than getting assassinated so, until then, I prefer the benefits of Jaws than the extra protection of having WG shield guards. To the original OP' post: I've played Mechs in my list and dropped them. I think they are good but unless I have points leftover, I won't take them anymore. Also, after your discussion above on Victor, I am intrigued and I'd be keen to hear your experiences on removing those support solos with arching fire. Is it reliable enough to warrant taking such an expensive model? I really enjoy having MOAHR jacks versus CG because they can fairly easily remove 3 on feat turn (both with Syvestro and Gearhart). As such, I don't know if having more jacks isn't just better for overall attrition and board positioning than one colossal. But again, I've never played Victor or a colossal against CG so would love to hear it's super good to start including it myself. My current list is this: I like the list and although Beast09 was a temporary stand-in, I do enjoy it. With MAT8 and Murderous and Tresher and a good threat range, he can actually reliable take out Set Defense Halbs. My long-term plan however is to replace him and with a Rager and put in Alexia2 and Windowmakers. I think I have to drop Yuri and the WMM for that too, which is fine. |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 9, 2019 10:31:12 GMT
Thanks for the comments. Bear in mind the list isn't solely for playing into CG. Just posted it up because I was going along roughly the same lines as sand really.
Cheers,
Dave
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 9, 2019 10:55:52 GMT
Major, major weakness is pathfinder, or its total absence.
Boundless Charge from both S0 and V1 doesn't sound like "total absence" to me? |
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Post by borderprince on May 9, 2019 11:49:52 GMT
Major, major weakness is pathfinder, or its total absence.
Boundless Charge from both S0 and V1 doesn't sound like "total absence" to me? I realised that a while after posting. It's useful. But apart from a major feat turn alpha, I'm usually limited to one BC a turn. So I was wrong. It just often feels like total absence... |
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 9, 2019 14:02:23 GMT
Find points to upgrade the Juggernaut to a Grolar.
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