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Post by sand20go on May 1, 2019 20:37:38 GMT
Over on the Facebook Khador page I whipped up this. I think it MIGHT work ;-)
conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0x71nmkUnjhFhFe37wlOkZfi86iB8IKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf [Butcher 2] Kommander Orsus Zoktavir [+28] - Ruin [17] - Spriggan [17] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Kovnik Andrei Malakov [4] - Behemoth [25] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Rager [10] Sergeant Nicolas Verendrye [4] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] Steelhead Halberdiers (max) [11] - Koldun Kapitan Valachev [4]
1) I wanted to get work done with Butcher with the Jacks and Conferred rage triggered by bunderbus shots. 2) That, in turn, meant that I wanted threat extenders and thus both S0 and Andy0 (or 1). With BC, CR, and Redline I am getting both going reasonably far 3) Again, for Focus efficiency I wanted Forgeseers (thus WGK was out - otherwise would likely have picked that one for Advance move and SacPawn). I decided against Wolves because I want S0/AO 4) I get a Rager in to help with Shield Guard. Not at ALL ideal but perhaps he can live ;-) 5) The wildcard is the Halbies/Nick package. Thinking here was that Butcher2 likes to be compact on the approach. He wants to get rage tokens from stuff killed in his control. The Steelhead package can go to the other side, tieing up a zone until Butcher can get into position to go hurt things. If possible, S0 can support with FOG as long as she can get back to BC Jacks/B2 himself. They are not great rage token candidates but not HORRIBLE. Nick provides the d3 recursion on them to make them irritating. Main issue is whether they will be helpful in generating Rage tokens.
Now a VERY viable criticism is that B3 may be strictly better in this list. Energize provides for nearly the same utility as CR. . Fury vs. SoD are FAIRLY compatible - especially in this situation. I THINK that B3 likely has a better feat turn - though to be fair it is somewhat contingent on whether you can surf with B2 and really live the dream. It isn't a slam dunk - for example if you can load up the jacks with stuff and send them fully loaded with both Rage Tokes, Focus (and later for Ruin Souls).
Thoughts (especially B3 vs B2)
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satyr
Demo Gamer
Posts: 10
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Post by satyr on May 2, 2019 4:02:19 GMT
My first reaction is that CR does nothing for behemoth. If it were me I would change out behemoth and the spriggan for a pair of berserkers on butcher and a third on Malakov. A redlined berserker with 3 focus and 3 rage tokens can do quite a bit of work. Then again I love berserkers and run 2 on butcher2 in my AC list so I am likely biased. Heck you could even keep the spriggan and pay for all 3 berserkers with behemoths cost alone.
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Post by michael on May 2, 2019 15:38:46 GMT
Yeah, I am not seeing it. What does Butcher2 bring to this party that just about any other caster does not do better?
Banking on triggering Conferred Rage on a single RNG 8 RAT 5 POW 12 blunderbus shot is officially a Bad Plan (tm). (I know, I’ve done it enough, and it just isn’t good.)
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Post by hocestbellum on May 2, 2019 18:20:46 GMT
Okay, so your list is three jacks, 40 points of support, and a single unit of low-stat single-wounders. That really doesn't seem like a good balance.
If your opponent has anything anti-infantry, they've only got one realistic target. The recursion is neat, but I bet most opponents can deal with more than 2 models (average) per turn.
Realistically speaking, you're more-or-less right on the whole B2-B3 thing. B3 is very good and very consistent, and if you think B2's main things are Conferred Rage's SPD boost and Fury then B3 absolutely has him matched. The difference is in the feats. How it boils down is that on his feat turn B3 can kill almost anything, but his army is left to its own devices. On B2's feat turn anything in his army can (potentially) kill almost anything, but he himself probably can't.
You need a good mix of things that generate tokens and things that use tokens, and it's worth remembering that between Fury and his feat, you can trade up brilliantly. A single Marauder can take out a colossal with a 95% chance if fully, fully loaded. With that in mind I wouldn't take Behemoth. You've got one crunch turn to win the game and he is just too expensive for what he provides.
I would really consider WGK, too. You gain a lot for the loss of a couple of focus.
Another thing to bear in mind is that B2 loves to see infantry, but the jacks he supports love to see heavy stuff to crack. There's not many lists around these days that have a good mix of both thanks to themes, so the meta is kind of always against him.
The last time I ran him in Jaws, I went with a core of:
(Butcher 2) Kommander Orsus Zoktavir [+28]
[*]Demolisher [16]
[*]Juggernaut [13]
[*]Juggernaut [13]
[*]Ruin [17]
[*]Spriggan [17]
Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)]
Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)]
Widowmaker Marksman [0(4)]
Kayazy Eliminators [5]
Kayazy Eliminators [5]
Widowmaker Scouts [8]
With 9 points left over to play around with. (Interestingly the points change in the Spriggan perfectly couterbalanced the points change in the Juggernaut for this list)
Now, this list is absurdly outdated; this comes from a time before Mercs or the Junior warcasters were allowed in theme, and before Yuri was a free option. But it's worth playing around with to see if you like it.
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Post by sand20go on May 2, 2019 19:07:54 GMT
Another thing to bear in mind is that B2 loves to see infantry, but the jacks he supports love to see heavy stuff to crack. There's not many lists around these days that have a good mix of both thanks to themes, so the meta is kind of always against him. Hmmm.....see I think that may be meta (faction?) specific.
1) Nearly EVERY Sylvestro list runs at least one unit - either rocket men or Halbies. The ones that don't try to run 3 huge bases and trancers but the problem with that is that low model count armies get into trouble _AND_ because of superfuel rules Slyvestro plays a bit of a turtle game.
2) Scary Gary is another caster who likes at least 1 unit because it allows him to maximize feat and essentially make you time walk it.
3) I am not sure how we classify Double SG Immortals. Not big battle group but 2 huge base BEs that are usually somewhat central.
4) Tharn. Probably min battle group points.
Part of my thinking was to think about running this as a poor man's convergence army.....with the idea that you would kill "stuff" with the jacks (possibly only one thing) and then "pass off" the fury tokens generated for more stuff. In some senses that is what the Red Lined BC Behemoth is there for - to kill ANYTHING in the game and pass off the rage token to, for example, Ruin - who with Fury kills anything in the game - to pass off to the Spriggan to kill things. Etc. etc. etc. So, for instance, the Jacks out threat at 12 and 13 the SG. If a lane can be cleared they go kill it - providing the Token to the next guy - who if Ruin and Spriggan can threaten 13 which is the threat on the Derp.
And the idea of going quality over Quantity was to realistically ask the question - if Butcher JUST has 2 focus the whole game what is a list that can work - to me that is why, for example, I am not sold on B2 being able to run Zerkers? Even with Rage tokens and Fury they are still not really hitting hard enough to take out, for example, a Derp under the Krea...and have a decent risk because of the new grid of losing an arm (or even work a cortex) to the REtal strike of a SG or being at Dice+5 (to Scary Gary's AP shot).
The "problem" with B3 right now in at least my Meta (and I think a lot of the competitive scene) is dealing with the stuff that can not be pulled. When that is denied him then you get into this challenge that he needs decent quality jacks to threat 13. Absent that, You can get kitted by the Derp, the Railess, the Cricket, the Sled and the BigBird and out threated by a Superfueled Vulcan (threats 13 - far more if you face idiotic Locke with Jackhammer). Those huge bases make B3 problematic. He can go in and kill one but it means going his full distance and that leaves him exposed to the counter. So he is forced to play for assissination - which he can, of course, do well but it is also not that hard to play around it - denying the vengeance extension, finding walls to limit pulls and using your huge bases (see above) to body block when required. It isn't a BAD game - but you are likely needing your opponent to make a mistake rather than forcing a really bad choice.
MOST of the other casters that CAN speed up our guys (OW1, Irusks, Vlad2, Hark) lack a damage buff and it is just too easy for you to run into things (locke, Zaal, Gary) to make it problematic to send even our best guys to try to remove a huge base fully on their own without a damage buff.
Now before you reach for the K on your keyboard I am aware that Karchev isn't a bad answer here. His feat - while forcing him to the mid-line, buffs our jacks like champs and gets them into good shape. His spells provide great ways to extend the threat of our reach jacks to 14. Working with him to see if he can play into CG is on the summer list. Not sure about Double Guardians - the theme benefit and the lack of RFP means I think you can only play for either assissination OR trying to clear out a pathway to the SG and then hoping you don't get crushed by the Vengeance on the backsides.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 2, 2019 19:54:37 GMT
A Siege Animantarax with the Agoniser debuff (I assume you meant that, as the Krea is shooting only) is an insanely high bar to clear. A full focus Juggernaut with Fury has a 7.9% chance to pull that off. You're basically talking about a Devastator.
For more realistic examples; it's got an 80% chance to destroy a Supreme Guardian with Fury and full tokens. As long as it has one functional arm the chance is about 60%. They can very cheerfully tear apart heavies with no focus... but that's not the point of them. Any non-Mad Dog jack in Khador can do that with Fury and tokens. The Juggernaut can do it without Fury.
My theory on the Berserkers (sadly lacking in testing at the moment) is that they are the most expendable jack that is still threatening. Use them to start piece trading, or to tie up things or contest zones. Anything that you wouldn't want to sacrifice a 'real' jack for. If your opponent goes for it, cool, B2 eats the unit or your jacks eat their jacks. If he doesn't, cool, shove your expendable Berserkers in the most annoying places possible.
I think this works best with casters like Butcher1, 2, and Karchev, who can almost incidentally make them more dangerous and carry huge personal threat. Vlad1 and Strakhov2 might be able to pull something off as well.
I can't overemphasise how cheap they are, though. You can get two of them for the price of a unit, and that is quite a lot of beef for your buck.
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Post by sand20go on May 2, 2019 19:58:07 GMT
A Siege Animantarax with the Agoniser debuff (I assume you meant that, as the Krea is shooting only) is an insanely high bar to clear. A full focus Juggernaut with Fury has a 7.9% chance to pull that off. You're basically talking about a Devastator. It is a high bar but it is a common one. There were SO MANY Skorne players all over KingdomCon. And while the SG is a lot more squishy - you need to think about either Zaal or Zadeshes feat - which lets them act as a pretty big detererrnt.
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Post by hocestbellum on May 2, 2019 21:39:24 GMT
I'm not saying that you'll never need to deal with them, I'm saying that expecting one of our light jacks to solo an ARM-buffed battle engine is perhaps a wee bit unrealistic!
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Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on May 3, 2019 4:45:23 GMT
I really don't see what it is that your list is trying to actually do. Because it seems to be pretty poor at actually using B2's kit, and trying to turn B2 into something he isn't.
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Post by MrHaystacks on May 3, 2019 9:41:06 GMT
This is my first look at a butcher 2 list. Some jacks that can operate well on little focus, some quality to get work done, the decimater was just a thought that I find works well with andy. The eliminators are just good and get the fury chain started. I'm not sure a bout the thamerite advocate, I like the idea of what doesn't kill you and hex bolt is nice, but maybe a 2nd forge seer is better... [Butcher 2] Kommander Orsus Zoktavir [+28] - Berserker [8] - Destroyer [14] - Juggernaut [13] - Ruin [17] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Kovnik Andrei Malakov [0(4)] - Decimator [15] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Beast 09 [18] Thamarite Advocate [3] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5]
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Post by sand20go on May 3, 2019 16:29:09 GMT
I really don't see what it is that your list is trying to actually do. Because it seems to be pretty poor at actually using B2's kit, and trying to turn B2 into something he isn't. We have 3 non-Boundless charge "threat extenders" that can also buff damage output for multiple jacks, Butcher 2, Vlad1 (feat + S&P) and Karchev. This is important in a game where it is increasingly important (I find) to threaten at least 13. As noted above, without being able to threaten 13 you can be out threated by the Derp, Vulcan and kitted by the big bird, the Sled, the Railless and the Cricket. WITH the exception of the maurader, none of those can easily be removed by a single Khador heavy until you get into elite range of Behemoth or a Victor/Connie and thus getting a start on a favorable piece trade becomes difficult.
(You can also hit 13 with Andy Redlining a reach jack with access to Boundless charge)
Now the Maurader is an interesting one. He DEFINITELY has game into the above. The trick is that you will have to bring at least 2 because, unless you are banking on ignorance, your opponent KNOWS they are huge threats for just 11 points and thus are likely the target of lots of love on the way in.....so you gotta bring at least 2 (and probably 3) and/or something good enough to force the trade.
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smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by smoth on May 4, 2019 16:37:12 GMT
(Interestingly the points change in the Spriggan perfectly couterbalanced the points change in the Juggernaut for this list) [ love most of your posting btw. Quick question why spriggan over ruin?
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Post by hocestbellum on May 4, 2019 16:56:39 GMT
(Interestingly the points change in the Spriggan perfectly couterbalanced the points change in the Juggernaut for this list) [ love most of your posting btw. Quick question why spriggan over ruin? Because Ruin is already in the list, and I can't take him twice! As for why the Spriggan in general; 2" reach is great with Ravager, and Bulldoze helps you clump up models. I tried the Grolar as well because of Ram being a bit like Overtake, but I could never quite get it to play out like that. Pathfinder was super handy though
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 4, 2019 17:23:22 GMT
Fundamentally, B2 still has the problem of focus allocation when it matters most. This isn’t news. However, this is a modification of my old list with the introduction of the Adjunct and Sorscha 0, which make him more playable at least. I’m OK losing the Forge Seer (and thus one focus) and either the WMM or Yuri for the Adjunct and Sorscha 0. The adjunct cloud will help make Butcher a bit more survivable from guns, and the eyeless sight or puppet master (plus the Spriggan or Destroyer) seem great. Sorscha’s threat extension gets two of the jacks up to 13”. Again, pure gold.
Now if B2 were only d3+3 focus...
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 8, 2019 14:12:03 GMT
As noted above, without being able to threaten 13 you can be out threated by the Derp, Vulcan and kitted by the big bird, the Sled, the Railless and the Cricket. One thing you need to take into account is scenario. They can kite you for days but if they're not committing to scenario you're still winning. Sometimes the key to dealing with the big pieces is to deal with the smaller pieces first (ie. remove the cheap stuff that can contest). On the list itself: I must admit I'm not a huge fan. I played around with Butcher2 a bit a while ago (think I put some battle reports up). My list was fairly different to yours from what I remember. Stick that steelhead package with Strakhov2 and whack Last Stand on them instead Cheers, Dave
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