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Post by DoctorGandalf on Apr 13, 2019 17:26:25 GMT
Hi all, I've been away from wmh for a few months and I'm coming back to trolls for a tournament. I've only played two games since coming back (one into a Bearka SotN list and one into a Vayl2 Oracles list), so I'm not very familiar with how trolls play in the current meta. I'm looking at playing either Jarl or Madrak1 in SotN as one of my list pairs, but I'm not sure what my second should be. A friend of mine says to play both lists in storm, but is that a viable strategy? I'm considering a Madrak1 BoH list that I used to be fairly good at piloting, but is BoH still potent now? Also, what weaknesses does SotN have that I should be aware of? Does BoH (or PoD) overcome them? Here are the lists I'm thinking about. The Madrak1 Storm list is the same as the Jarl list, except subbing the bomber for an impaler and a pyre troll and losing the chef. conflictchamber.com/?c7201b_-0a4N0r9Djq6GfF6O0l0miTbKiT0b0c___-0G0g0r9Djq6GfFj20li-iZiZezeziTbKcCTrollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Band of Heroes [Madrak 1] Madrak Ironhide, Thornwood Chieftain [+29] - Dire Troll Bomber [19] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Trollkin Champion Hero [0(5)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] - Skaldi Bonehammer [5] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15] - Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer [5] Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North [Skuld 1] Jarl Skuld, Devil of the Thornwood [+30] - Dire Troll Bomber [19] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North [0(6)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] Northkin Bear Handlers & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Bear Handlers & Battle Bears [10] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] - Skaldi Bonehammer [5] - Trollkin Sorcerer (1) [3] Do y'all have any recommendations, or anything that I'm missing? Thanks for any help! P.S. One of the people in my meta has a Butcher3 list with 6 devastators. What can trolls do to face that? I've only played it once with swans before the bulldoze change, but it was absolutely brutal on scenario. |
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325 
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Post by bundeez on Apr 13, 2019 18:55:54 GMT
I played double SotN for a while but I think having BoH in the pair is very good for list pairing/chicken. Takedown is good in the current meta.
I don't like champions anymore, too squishy even with sanguine bond. I have had some success with them and Madrak1 against people who can't boost MAT (Khador, some Ret, maybe Cygnar), but their threat range is soo low compared to anything out there.
Latest BoH netlist is:
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Band of Heroes
[Madrak 2] Madrak Ironhide, World Ender [+28]
- Dire Troll Brawler [16]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer [5]
Trollkin Long Riders (max) [20]
Trollkin Long Riders (max) [20]
I have no idea what to bring against that Butcher list. He EATS any troll list, except Earthborns you hide in the back..
Maybe dudespam and go for scenario win? Can't really dudespam anymore (forced to have larger battlegroup) but if you want to totally counter, maybe go nuts with Madrak3:
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Band of Heroes
[Madrak 3] Madrak, Great Chieftain [+29]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Earthborn Dire Troll [14]
- Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Troll Whelps [4]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
- Kriel Warrior Standard & Piper [3]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer [0(5)]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer [5]
Earthborn to avoid getting impending doomed assassinated, whelps to take flags, dudes that run, run(feat), run. Maybe? xP
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Apr 13, 2019 20:17:25 GMT
I love Jarl Skuld and he _loves_ not paying for his upkeeps. Champs with Pathfinder from a fell caller and Quicken and a central forest or cloud will make gun lines very sad. My buddy (who has played much longer than I have) conceded on turn three twice while playing Cygnar into this list. I will share the spoon-bending technique I recieved here. Take Rok. Swift Hunter works with assault, so you can probably move to engage a totally different target and not even see the charge target so you can put all your attacks into the target you wanted!
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Post by DoctorGandalf on Apr 13, 2019 21:33:55 GMT
Bundeez: Good to know BoH stands up. The threat range on champs is really sad, it's true. I wonder if Lanyssa would help them get delivered.
Long riders definitely look amazing, I can see why people max them out. I don't reckon the tourney will let me proxy, but afterwards I'll have to try that list out using my storm lances afterwards.
I'm kind of surprised to see Madrak2 over 1 in that list, my default just instantly goes to 1 if I'm running BoH. Is the damage increase that good compared to the def buff of 1?
I've seen that Madrak3 list before, but championed by 2 instead. That is...a lot of dudes. Could be really fun to try, I'll see if I can't find a proxy for a second fennblade unit (I could use double champs and warders for the kriel warriors). If only we had some kind of anti-push mechanism like the shocktrooper CA, I feel like that could push things slightly in our favor.
Mazog: I've always had a soft spot for Jarl, and I think storm is by far his favorite place. Quickened champs with the speed stone was absolutely insane versus the oracles list, he was flabbergasted to see champs that could threaten him from turn two. He did say the next time we play he'll be bringing kallus1 PT, so I'm curious if they hold true through that.
Speaking of that match, I brought Rok in it. He was definitely good, but I missed rage. I had Rok, a pyre troll, and an impaler as the battlegroup in that game, and even with primal up the pyre troll bounced off a bear-softened throne pretty hard. It also gave me the points to swap a unit of lookouts for a unit of bears (though I'm not convinced of that swap with Jarl, he loves him some lookouts).
Thanks for the advice folks! I can definitely use all I can get, feels like a different world where gaspy nine slayers or skarre3 are barely mentioned anymore.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Apr 14, 2019 3:53:27 GMT
**theory machine warning**
Lights that aren't Axers or Bashers are not going to like Primal as much as Rage unless you are struggling to hit.
**Theory machine has ended, the rest is from experience**
Beasts in general don't hit as hard if you bring the cold stone, so you are really down 2 PS from what you are used to. Bouncing off something is not a surprise under that condition. Bears and Rok himself are the arm crackers in the list, the pyre is mostly there to light up fire eaters and then be a transfer target that occasionally sets things on fire and generates fury in my experience.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 14, 2019 8:00:29 GMT
My general suggestion is: always have a second List that is BoH (Technically PoD) to bring the "other elder". This is key to many matchups and can break your neck in Storm. Especially on Tournaments. You could bring that elder in Storm as well, but then there would be less of a point going for that Theme in the first place. Second thing is working in that Storm list yourself: People have adapted to the Bears, I often don't see them nearly doing as much work as they used to (check Los-Warmschines last battle report for example www.loswarmachine.com/skorne-battle-reports/2019/4/6/makeda-3-imperial-warhost-vs-kolgrima-sotn-warmachine-and-hordes-skorne-battle-report)Mix it up, do something differend and don't always play the same list. Analyse why your Storm list came out short: can your second list adapt? Can you change your list to have the tools needed? Storm makes everything hit harder, be faster. This means stat increase and attrition atvantage. And as weird as this sounds, people can adapt to you having more hitting power and they did. You (and we as Troll players) need to figure out new innovative ways and learn how to make the best use of Storm without "just grinding with Kolgrimma and Bearka". Kolgrimma as a toolbox actually gives you tools, but people just know her now and she won't surprise anyone anymore. |
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Post by Trollock on Apr 14, 2019 8:44:19 GMT
The above madrak 2 list should be good in to devestators. Slams still work on those things 😎
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Post by DoctorGandalf on Apr 16, 2019 3:14:31 GMT
Mazog: I hadn't considered how the lack of a stone scribe compounds the pow difference. I'll admit, I'm not a huge fan of having a model that doesn't get much work done (especially considering we already have the stone as a combat-poor 12 points). I'll have to play more with both the mauler and Rok, see which plays out better. I'm not sure where I'm gonna find 4 points in the list though, both the obvious solutions are only 3.
Snoozer: I definitely agree we need to innovate. I think especially ambushing people have learned how to handle bears--and fire eaters to a lesser extent. I don't own them, but I'm curious about doing some sort of def skew with raiders (maybe under Calandra?), see if something like that can change things up a bit. Maybe even go stoneless for a while.
Trollock: That's a good point. He definitely has a huge scenario advantage with bulldoze, slams could even that out. I was talking to him at the tournament yesterday, and he was telling me he thought having a lot of dudes and having speed were both important. That list definitely does both fairly well.
(BTW I'm a big fan, your getting started guide was such a huge help when I first started playing trolls)
All: So I played the tournament, actually using almost those exact lists (impaler and pyre instead of bomber for Jarl). I went 1-2 on the Jarl list and 1-0 on the Madrak. One of those losses was into tharn, while the other was forgetting to feat before getting shot to death by a classic stryker1 heavy metal list. The Jarl win was on an assassination after a great attrition match, while the Madrak was solely a clock out against ghost fleet.
In all, I feel like the Madrak list is definitely getting long in the tooth. I'm really going to miss it, but I do feel like it needs to adapt to the modern day. I'm not sure Maddy2 is the answer yet, but having BoH in some version of the pair is really necessary.
Jarl Storm is...not bad? Against cygnar and the strakhov list that got assassinated, I didn't feel like I was the underdog--just that the opponent knew what I was going to be doing the whole time. Which isn't a great feeling. Tharn was really, really ugly. I'm a casual player to be sure, so maybe it was just a mismatch of player type. But the person I faced was cold and absolutely humorless while he methodically destroyed everything from a position of safety.
I'm not convinced it's the way to go, mainly because I want something that's got weird nonlinear vectors. Just not sure how to do that with trolls.
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Post by Trollock on Apr 16, 2019 16:29:06 GMT
Madrak2 has non linear threat in two ways. Both the feat and warpath 😉
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Apr 17, 2019 3:00:08 GMT
Jarl doesn't really do nonlinear, he does extended linear threats. I still want to make a 13" Slam with a long rider. The magic bullets are terrific nonlinear threats, though. The games I got into Tharn Iona learned to camp substantial fury very quickly between Magic Bullet and the Bomber. She has the Fury to be effective and camp, sadly, but it does soften up her battlegroup nicely.
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