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Post by Armchair Warrior on Apr 13, 2019 0:43:13 GMT
This new theme force will be in CID starting next Wednesday. For those who missed the Dev Chat, this is EITHER a Khador or Protectorate theme force. Based on Dev Chat, I believe the following are true about the theme force:
- It’s either Khador or Protectorate. YOU decide. - All models in the theme force must be Khador or Protectorate Cavalry models. - Any Khador or Protectorate Cavalary caster. They specifically mentioned Reznik 2 and Vlad 3. We can assume Feora 3 and Kreoss 3. - Any Cavalary unit or solo from Khador or Protectorate. - Unclear, but I assume all 3 Khador battle engines would be allowed, since they all have the Cavalary special rule. - All non character jacks from both factions. In terms of character jacks, Drago would be allowed in Khador. Not sure about Menoth.
So, first, what do you think?
Second, being honest, I’m a Khador player here for some advice and commentary about the Menoth casters, units, solos and Jacks. This theme sounds pretty exciting to me but I know next to nothing about Menoth.
Help?
I’ll trade a bit of intel. In terms of our eligible models:
Vlad 3 - he’s recognized as one of Khaodr’s worst casters, but in an all Cav theme? He’ll be pretty good. HoF and Dash are pure gold. Infernal Machine is brilliant on one warjack. Blood Quenched got a sweet upgrade so against infantrymachine he’s got game.
Uhlans - Arm 17/19, POW 16 (Lance rule, sigh...), you bring them because they hit hard once, or twice with Vlad 3’s feat, and bring Relentless Charge. Maybe unnecessary if you own a unit of Flame Bringers?
Outriders - Pure gold for the SPD and SP attack if you have a caster that boosts the attack roll (and this theme has access to that).
Solos - Ferris and Drakhuns are both solid choices, but potentially overcosted in this theme...but maybe not depending on the cavalry benefit and caster, and the availability of other cheap flag scoring solos.
Jacks - OK, so PoM players, welcome to the POW 19 Juggernaut. Don’t believe the salt. 13 points is completely worth it. The Kodiak is also a great pathfinder jack with steamvent at 13 points. Maruaders are also pure gold against enemies with huge bases for 11 points. Ragers are a good 10 point shield guard. Drago is our character jack in this theme if you bring Vlad, and he’s not bad...but not great. I’m unsure the rest of the Khador stable will have much purchase appeal for a PoM player with a full compliment of PoM jacks.
Battle Engines - All 3 are pretty good, but each is pretty specialized. The Gun Carraige might have the best all around utility but is a bit more expensive.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Apr 13, 2019 4:44:13 GMT
Sure, I'll summarize:
Kreoss3- IMO, our best Cav caster, in large part because he turns Vengers up to 11 by giving Divine Inspiration. Lots of upkeeps (Arcane Ward, Assail, Death Sentence, Ignite), but all cheap enough to be cast frequently. Force Hammer for a nice battlefield-control nuke, if expensive, and Crevasse to deal with swarms. Feat is basic, but very nice, purifying all enemy upkeeps and animi in range, then casting each upkeep for free. Due to Divine Inspiration being for Vengers specifically, I think the only thing he'd really want from Khador is Outriders, to deal with infantry swarms. A jack could be interesting if he could take Khador jacks, but I'm pretty sure that won't be the case.
Feora3 - She's all about Incite and Redline. So again, interesting to see her with a Khador jack or two, but doubt it'll be allowed. Otherwise she has Banishing Ward, Fire Step, and Molten Metal, but yeah...she's all about Incite. I find this problematic with cavalry, as Incite seems better to me with ranged, but she at least looks cool.
Reznik2 - BIG butt, with Curse [battlegroup], Lamentations of Suffering (non-magic ranged attacks auto-miss him so long as he has a focus), Boundless Charge, Death March, Flesh is Weak, Lamentation, and Spellpiercer for spells. Feat says when you box an enemy model with melee or ranged while in Control Range, the boxed model explodes into a 4" AOE with enemy models under the AOE taking a POW14. This is, in theory, awesome with cavalry (never actually tried), as it makes up for the low attack number. Problem is that Reznik2 is scatterbrained, with no real clear direction on what he wants.
Vengers - DEF12/ARM18, 5 boxes, with Battle-Driven (+2 STR/ARM and pathfinder for 1 round after somebody in the unit was hurt), repo 3", a P+S15 blessed magical Lance (with the awful rule), and a P+S10 weapon master sword with Close Combat. If they are hurt, or with Kreoss3, they become really good. With both, they become monsters on the battlefield.
Flame Bringers - DEF14/ARM15, parry, repo 5" and side step, with two P+S 9 weapon master swords with critical grievous wounds. Fun for harassing and getting in the back field, but simply cannot go toe-to-toe and survive with a LOT of things.
Champion of the Order of the Wall - DEF13/ARM 18, dragoon, girded, repo 3", retaliatory strike, steady, sturdy, a P+S continuous fire magical lance (yes, with the stupid rule), a P+S 12 weapon master magical close combat sword, and a P+S 12 magical shield. Never tried, honestly, but looks cool.
Gravus - DEF12/ARM17, dragoon, Brother's Keeper (while within 10", friendly Exemplar Models cannot be KD), Desperate Pace for small/medium based exemplar (so totally useless here), repo 3", gathers souls from friendly Exemplar models (up to 3), which he can spend to buy or boost attacks, a P+S 11 chain weapon magical weapon master attack with dispel. He's a support model for Exemplars, and I don't even really like him there as he always dies too easily.
Hand of Silence - yes, ANOTHER cav model. Def13/ARM 16 Reclaimer with Ashen Veil, direct souls to guide where friendly souls go, repo 3", gathers souls from friendly living faction models (up to 3), which it can spend to give a friendly faction warjack within 5" a focus, buy a melee attack, or boost an attack. Armed with a SP8 POW12 flamethrower with Assault, and a P+S 14 continuous fire, magical melee weapon.
Non-summary, overall thoughts - It's difficult to predict how this will go, as it depends upon how the theme handles Friendly Faction stuff. For example, a Hand of Silence placed in a Khador list would be pointless as it stands right now, as he could never gather souls.
I think Protectorate is probably going to be most interested in the Outriders, with some consideration to solos and engines. I don't think the Uhlans will likely replace Vengers, especially not with Kreoss3.
I think Khador will most likely be interested in the casters, especially Feora3, and what support Protectorate brings if any (i.e. choir). I doubt Khador would want the units, and the protectorate solos are too specific to the models they support.
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Post by mydnight on Apr 13, 2019 7:28:51 GMT
Feora 3 will like the outriders.
I think the gun carriage is pretty interesting with most of the PoM casters. The trampling will cause fits on Reznik2's feat turn, while both Feora and Kreoss will be able to give it more damage output.
Cavalry lists will suffer from not having a screening unit. Champs can kinda fill this role. BUt bringing some shooting will help.
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Post by corvidae on Apr 13, 2019 11:56:15 GMT
I'm thinking that the conversion and painting potential of such a theme is incredible!
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Apr 13, 2019 13:36:22 GMT
mydnight, yes, as a Khador player I will tell you that I’m eyeing Feora 3 to take with the Outriders. The Outriders are generally a hair under par absent a caster who can provide a hit buff, since Magic 6 doesn’t cut it in a lot of match ups. They’re quite good with any of the Vlads who fix this problem, or a caster like Sorscha who will just make their targets stationary. +2 hit/damage really dials them up to 11. Their weakness with Vlad 1 vs. Vlad 2 is that they’re quite useful playing far out on a flank, and they lose their umph when they leave Vlad 1’s control range. Incite will present a similar problem. However, as you point out, an Old Faith list will suffer from not having a screening unit...so...one might consider putting them out in a screening position. SPD 9, SP 8, with 5” of Repo allows you shave off oncoming infantry. doopsie, in the Dev Chat, Hungerford specifically said, “you can bring Khador and Protectorate jacks freely between the two, and all models in the army become Protectorate...If you want to have Reznik 2 with Juggernauts, go nuts.” Olsen chimes in to say this theme is both Khador’s and PoM’s, implying that if you’re playing a Khador army then all models in the army become friendly faction for Khador as well. My 2 cents on rationale? - They’re only balancing 4 casters across a fairly limited set of models. I don’t immediately see any balance concerns. Honestly, it looks fun. - From a marketing standpoint, this theme is great. Cavalary models are underplayed and this will likely provide a nice sales boost. (I don’t know about your PoM Cav, but my Uhlans have been collecting dust.) The theme gives Khador and PoM players a reason to buys some models from the other faction, including the jack lineup. In terms of balance issues, I’m seeing some good combinations but nothing broken through my Khador lens. Vlad 3 is a mediocre caster who needs access to more cavalry to even function, which this theme allows. His spells which might be abused cross faction would be Murderous, Dash, and Hand of Fate. Well, Menoth already has the High Reclaimer, and Feora with Incite and Redline seems somewhat on par with HoF plus Murderous. His feat (grants Side Step and Feat) works on Cav and Warjacks. It wasn’t broken with 11-13 point budget Khador heavies, and I doubt it will be broken with access to Menoth jacks (but, heck, am I missing something?) Conversely, I’m not concerned at all with Uhlans (a sideways move from Vengers) or Outriders with these 3 casters. Yes, Outriders will be good with Feora 3 but as I said previously they’re not broken with Vlad 2. In general, Khador jacks are good but I’m not seeing any super broken combinations with the 3 PoM casters allowed in the theme - gain some durablility, lose -1 SPD, potentially pick up a point of POW. Not worrysome. OK, so with that said, which PoM jacks are considered the best in faction, and which would you play in this theme? Regarding the casters and initial list building thoughts... I like the look of Feora 3. Incite in general, and Redline on a colossal looks good. I’d definitely bring my Uhlans and Outriders (I own one unit each). If I were going to buy one unit of Menoth cav to go with this list, I can’t quite puzzle through which would be better between Flame Bringers and Vengers. If I were to somehow stumble on a pained Judicator for cheap money, I’d include it. In the meantime I’d probably reach for Victor. If I owned two units of painted Vengers, I’d run not walk towards Kreoss 3. As a Khador player interested in perhaps purchasing only one unit of Menoth cav if this theme looks good, I don’t know if he’d be worth taking over Feora 3. Feora just does so much more for Outriders, and I think this theme is really going to appreciate having a fast unit with an effective ranged magical spray (anti incorp, volume of attacks, infantry control, etc.) Reznik 2 looks like a cool caster and even cooler model, but probably not OP enough for me to go out and purchase and paint him. I’m already sitting behind one unpainted MOW battle engine. Vlad 3 is going to like having access to more cav. As with Feora 3, I’m not quite sure which unit of Cav I’d be most, but given that I own a unit of Uhlans and Outriders I’m leaning towards Flame Bringers over Vengers. Uhlans (and whatever warjacks are in the army) cover armor cracking, and Flame Bringers seem like a really nice unit on which to cycle Hand of Fate. If I were to pick up a couple of Menoth jacks to fit in, I’m not sure what to reach for. In general, I think this army really wants SPD 5 jacks to be relevant, preferably with multiple melee attacks (to benefit from the feat and Side Step.). I think Khador has a corner on the market on budget SPD 4 heavies so I wouldn’t bother to look there. Suggestions?
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Post by greytemplar on Apr 13, 2019 18:54:02 GMT
Feora 3 will like the outriders. I think the gun carriage is pretty interesting with most of the PoM casters. The trampling will cause fits on Reznik2's feat turn, while both Feora and Kreoss will be able to give it more damage output. Cavalry lists will suffer from not having a screening unit. Champs can kinda fill this role. BUt bringing some shooting will help. As I understand it, this theme force doesn't give you access to the other faction's units. Your list has to be all Khador OR all Protectorate. No mixing or matching.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Apr 13, 2019 19:23:31 GMT
@graytemplar, that’s not how I understood the Dev Cast. They specifically called out that models of the other faction would be considered friendly faction within the theme, and that they’re looking for cool cross faction conversions on the table.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Apr 13, 2019 20:02:32 GMT
Ok, so given that, I think generally you'd want to favor Khador jacks (except in one case) unless you plan on playing with lights. Specifically, for each caster:
Kreoss3 - Double Vengers, a unit of Outriders, Fire of Salvation (the exception, you absolutely take this with Kreoss even if there's no choir), maybe a Destroyer, and maybe some solos. One of the big weaknesses with Double Vengers, I find, is a lack of shooting. Outriders and a Khador jack can fix this.
Reznik2 - Def needs a Devout to keep himself alive, I'd probably play around with Outriders and some battle engines. Honestly not sure on this one,he's such an odd caster, but probably the one most likely to take a lot of Khador stuff. Outriders would be really funny with feat, as they could easily clear multiple light-ARM units (each killed model explodes into a 4" AOE with POW14 on everything underneath. Hilarious with 5 SP8 attacks).
Feora3 - I'd skip Menoth cav with her, as melee cav are difficult to use and get good work out of incite. I'd probably go Judicator and double-Outriders.
Vlad3 - Yep. Triple-cav, mix of Uhlans, Vengers, and Flame Bringers. Would be tempted to do double-Flame Bringers, single Uhlans, then fill out the rest with jacks. If choir is an option, may favor Dervishes. If not, then skip the lights.
SPD5 Jacks in Menoth - There's not a ton, and keep in mind Menoth jacks tend to be balanced around having Choir. Still, the options are: -Castigator - SPD5, DEF10/ARM19, two RNG1 P+S16 open hands with continuous fire, fire immunity, Ashen Veil, and Combustion. I like them when the rest of the list struggles with infantry, so probably a list with double-Uhlan/Vengers, which also makes up for the lower P+S of the jack. -Fire of Salvation - absolutely with Kreoss3, maybe with others. SPD5, DEF10/ARM19, Relentless Charge, Righteous Vengeance, a P+S14 open fist and P+S18 mace with continuous fire and dispel, and when taken with Kreoss, Divine Inspiration (aka Signs & Portents).
-Reckoner - The only ranged SPD5 jack. DEF10/ARM19, Fire immunity, Ashen Veil, a RNG12 POW14 shot with fire damage, crit continuous fire, and Flare, and a RNG2, P+S17 crit continuous fire mace. Given cav get boosted charge attack rolls, probably not a good fit here.
-Sanctifier - DEF10/ARM19, fire immunity, Ashen Veil, Exorcist (enemy models within 10" lose incorporeal), Soul Taker: Cenotaph (gather souls from friendly living faction models destroyed within 5", can have up to 5 souls, can turn souls to focus at start of activation). RNG1 P+S14 open fist and RNG2 P+S16 magical mace. Probably one of the better options, as it deals with incorporeal models and can help fuel itself.
Then, of course, there's the lights. Every light is SPD5, so that's an option. If looking for melee, probably Dervish or Purifier. For ranged, Redeemer (3 AOE3 RNG16 shots at RAT1) or Repenters (SP8 continuous fire). For protection, Devout (shield guard and stop spell assassinations) or Vigilant (walking wall).
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Post by greytemplar on Apr 13, 2019 20:44:39 GMT
@graytemplar, that’s not how I understood the Dev Cast. They specifically called out that models of the other faction would be considered friendly faction within the theme, and that they’re looking for cool cross faction conversions on the table. Well it would be cool if that is the case. i suppose we'll wait till the CID for confirmation, I would love to take some Khador jacks and maybe some of their Cav models.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Apr 14, 2019 4:38:16 GMT
Cavalry lists will suffer from not having a screening unit. Champs can kinda fill this role. BUt bringing some shooting will help. Well, Idrians may still be an available merc unit...
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Apr 14, 2019 13:54:36 GMT
Cavalry lists will suffer from not having a screening unit. Champs can kinda fill this role. BUt bringing some shooting will help. Well, Idrians may still be an available merc unit...
It sounds like a hella xenophobic theme so I'm not sure bout that, but we will see.
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Post by greytemplar on Apr 14, 2019 16:58:47 GMT
All the themes so far have allowed one merc solo and unit. If this is the same it will help.
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Post by Havock on Apr 16, 2019 17:02:57 GMT
Clamjacks ought to be fun under Feora3. Incite bumps up their relative pillow-fistedness and flame trail plus bulldoze is dumb. Also dumb is flame trail on Kayazy Eliminators. As-is it probably won't be an earthbreaking theme assuming support is limited to some mechanics of the red or white variation. If we do get shit like Battle-hymned ancillary attack Victor, colour me very surprised
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Post by paradox on Apr 16, 2019 17:08:26 GMT
Clamjacks ought to be fun under Feora3. Incite bumps up their relative pillow-fistedness and flame trail plus bulldoze is dumb. Also dumb is flame trail on Kayazy Eliminators. As-is it probably won't be an earthbreaking theme assuming support is limited to some mechanics of the red or white variation. If we do get shit like Battle-hymned ancillary attack Victor, colour me very surprised Kayazy arent on horses, so would they be in the theme?
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Post by Havock on Apr 16, 2019 18:21:45 GMT
They wouldn't be, but being partisans probably can be taken in the Merc slot
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