sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Apr 14, 2019 14:13:04 GMT
I love how "just adapt to the meta 4head" is thrown around here and in the Cygnar board as if model selection and interactions weren't finite in this game. It's not like a counter to mass grievous wounds and the like is just going to fall out of the sky if you're creative enough, it either exists already or it doesn't. If your such an innovator I'd commend you to build a tactica thread to brainstorm solutions rather than being judgemental.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Apr 14, 2019 14:18:15 GMT
Hear hear!
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Apr 14, 2019 15:15:52 GMT
My secret wish is that the pod theme benefit will change to "models in this army can never be prevented from healing." Or maybe the Archon will do that. Regardless, the meta has changed in many more ways than easily obtained grievous wounds and we can adapt to the other changes. I, for one, rarely ambush my bears these days. My opponent have largely got the hang of dealing with that, but they provide a hell of a board presence when they run up top of one and can make charges if the opponent isn't cautious at the bottom of one.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Apr 14, 2019 15:37:06 GMT
You guys are losing to the "the new shiny" maily because it's new, not because it's shiny. If you run into something you haven't played against means you will lose period. But they know your stuff now. They can handle the bears, they won't fall for a kolgrimma spray assassination anymore. You just have to adapt and that is hard work. You must know how the "enemy" works to best it. If you all are really that tired, jump faction. Probably best would be borrowing or proxing. Then you can see how suddenly that grass is not so green and how Legion is already not "broken" anymore (0 nerfs) and how Tharn also will be beatable after adapting in a few weeks. I kind of miss Trollock here, he was shepherding all the salt pretty well with innovative list and good analysis. Um, no? First off, there is very little in this thread I would call salt. I was very much reassured that they haven't slipped as far, they just aren't that popular. Tharn have been out for months with no one having a good answer for them yet. Broken Coast, Adepticon Masters and Champions, Barcelona Masters, all won by Circle and many with Circle mirror finals in the last months or so. I don't think struggling against Circle is indicative of anyone not trying or looking to adapt, they look pretty freaking shiny to the rest of the world apparently. Did anyone even mention Legion? I missed it if they did. I do also play a second faction, Retribution. And with their recent releases (Trident and Garryth2) and tweaks they have gotten the grass is very much greener over there, I'm just not as interested in them as they are my second faction. And I don't play Kolgrimma at all, although I do play a list with Bears, so I guess I could be that guy. Although I personally appreciate any constructive criticism you did come across as very dismissive when it was completely unwarranted. The first person that admitted he was negative also said that he was running a KC list to some affect and was hopeful for the Archon. We all more less admitted that we are struggling to innovate to the new meta, so really you're just kicking a dog at that point. Maybe my title was a little "click bait", but the conversation has been pretty positive for the most part. Everybody gets to gripe, but most everyone had a suggestion as well. Cheers. And please feel welcome to help us figure out to position Trolls better for the next run of tournaments. I like Trollock a lot too, but we can keep this on the rails ourselves.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 14, 2019 16:19:57 GMT
I love how "just adapt to the meta 4head" is thrown around here and in the Cygnar board as if model selection and interactions weren't finite in this game. It's not like a counter to mass grievous wounds and the like is just going to fall out of the sky if you're creative enough, it either exists already or it doesn't. If your such an innovator I'd commend you to build a tactica thread to brainstorm solutions rather than being judgemental. That is a lot of salt here - I don't know if I can really write a good list writing guide. But I think this has been done before. With mass grievious wounds I think you are talking about anamags feat and skorne? Maybe Circle with the solo, but that's less "mass" I suppose. The feat is more 1 round of Gw or an upkeep that could be removed. I would argue that Mortality is much worse for you to get hit by however. So first: what does gw do? It stops healing. This is bad for multi wound models, tanky models and Hordes in general because otherwise Beasts with 3 boxes do 100% damage before dying next turn. This kind of means that about every Troll model suffers from this in some way. What are counters? First: you cannot "counter" gw (unless you are a gargantuan). Gw will mean that you will take more attrition damage. The odd sorcerer on a Champs unit also cannot help here. You must accept that things will die. In Warmachine this is regular and normal you have to sacrifice troops. This means that single wound Infantry is pretty key here. They can flood zones and take the less harm from the rule. A really easy troll list is the good old madrak 2 "poop list" featured on one YouTube channel (m2 glacier, 3x Kriel warriors and 1x Fennblades and stuff). That kind of makes gw irrelevant. If you face Anamag you will have to play around that feat. Block troops. Keep your second line safe. Punish them for getting on your models and be sufficiently aggressive to retaliate. How to do depends on the table and your list. This one kind of wants to say: be basically good in playing. You will argue that this is kind of a stupid thing to say. But this means: get your basics right, control the flow of the game. Punish your opponent as much as possible. With this you can handle gw much better. And getting the basics right (contest, trade, score, general dynamic game plan, know where to be aggressive and how to salvage advantages and sacrifices). Dont let them get too many models and never for free. Look the Lock and Load streams on YouTube, listen to what Pagani says about the state of the games. Check out many battle reps on the internet and listen to their rational. This helps a lot with getting more solid. And the rest is tons of game practice to get rock solid (I also don't play multiple games a week or even close to what WTC players claim). I do not know how much you guys play or what your skill level is, but training is always important. Especially I to the matchups that you struggle with. The next thing is shooting. I think Trolls also kind of suffer because KC is not really used atm (and with the shooty-beast-burden I see the issue). Shooting gives you an alpha strike. If you are Close combat only, there might be scenarios where they kind of flood on your lines hit everything and leave you bleeding. Be sure to have way to remove key models (Madrak axe helps). One Bomber also helps a lot here. This is a good thing to have for your build in general. Gw coming in sticks, still come on short sticks (read: meele). Next: More of building against specific threats. Any form of purification (Ragnor, Eilish) would help with Skorne, unless its Mortality. Anything that globally shuts them down one turn would help against anamags feat (Read Borka 2, but Madrak 1 can also just use the feat to stop charges). This is just from the top of my head (and mobile, all the mistakes that will be in this text :x) I think not being able to remove damage is key to some matchups but actually if you play cygnar for example, without any mechanics you will never heal anything. I think you just need to accept that fact and keep your calm. You kind of have to work similar to when you play against mass weapon masters. Because if they just kill your stuff dead, healing is also irrelevant. Short ps: I don't mean to offend anyone or get this thread to a toxic atmosphere. I just hate this negative doom attitude while in my opinion and experience the game is pretty well balanced. If anyone took offense I appologize.
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Apr 14, 2019 18:10:34 GMT
You are pretty quick to call slat where no salt is to be found imo, but just to clarify, you did not offend me. Though I admit that the behaviour I criticised is a personal pet peeve of mine, I leave it up to you if that falls within your definition of "offended". You are also not the worst offender of this by far on this board. That being said I can understand your frustration of players leaving a faction just because it's not "shiny" enough. I recommend you take a step back in that situation though and ask yourself if it is really due to a lack of shininess, or a genuine grievance. If players simply can't rake in results in tournaments with their favourite faction, that's going to sting and you can't blame people for enjoying other factions if these factions are genuinely fun to them. Winning feels good, nobody should be blamed for wanting to win. Which is why the above behaviour is a pet peeve of mine. Don't judge players for the way they play the game, which is the attitude these "just adapt to the meta 4head" comments ooze with to me (though I admit that tone in writing is always iffy, so that might not be the intention). It is also true that not everybody is an innovator and again, people should not be judged for not being one. Also just to make things clear: No hard feelings. I too don't wish to create a toxic environment here, just see it as a respectful disagreement (I do hope my tone reflects that I snark a lot, I know).
Edit: Also sorry to derail this conversation a bit, but I guess this is a topic where such a discussion was inevitable.
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Post by Trollock on Apr 14, 2019 19:20:55 GMT
My mini analysis of the situation is that SotN was released and we were really strong. Then along came Primal Terrors and DH who both ask ppl to bring anti healing. Those two lists also happen to be really good at fighting our previos monster unit: champions. So every one else started teching against healing and multi wound, and the new multi wound stuff just happened to be very good against champions. Much or our faction has not gone through CID yet, like fennblades and kriel warriors. Though not exactly bad, they are probably over costed. Many beasts got point discounts after our CID so many of our beasts feel a bit over costed.
Then we have our previously good theme PoD. Still pretty ok ok attrition, but scenario from sr2017 and forward forces the brick to split, which it hates.
Id say that even though trolls are not bad, things changed around us in an unfavorable way. I do not think everything that went through cid after us is inherently more powerful, but much of it just happened to be good against our stuff. Add that sr2017+ force spreading out, which the kriel stone makes us hate. Sad coincidence π₯
All we can do is to try and adapt and overcome. Winter, i mean CID is coming! π€
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274
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Post by jarrow on Apr 15, 2019 6:20:43 GMT
Lets start with PoD:
PoD I think is best compared to skorne Imperial Warhost. Both armies want to brick and both themes basicly run without units. (Krielstone and beast handlers are similar unit) What makes them different as Skorne can run IW but trolls do not run PoD? Beasts I think are quite same prize and I think running two Agonziers to spread out is quite rare. - Battle-engines? - Skorne better fury handling? - Skorne better beast casters? - More free points on theme?
Skorne can definitely run several beasts easier, but I think none of those points are really breaking the theme. Can someone point why PoD is unplayable but skorne can play IW as competitive list pair? And don't get me wrong, getting free dhunias knot or cheaper runeshapers or better lesser warlock would definitely make life easier, but I still think PoD list don't look that different compared to IW lists.
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Post by Kevin on Apr 15, 2019 7:06:17 GMT
Ya kinda missed theme benefits. I wouldnt go as far as sayin that Imerial Warhosts are great, but exept starting with upkeeps, PoD offers none. Unlimited Runeshapers in list that doesnt get point from them? Serenity on unit with 13/13 that has to stay 3 inches behind? Even free solo choices are so,so exept Runebearer. Not to mention Skorne just bricks better Wouldnt like to add salt, but KC and PoD in therms of benefiets are examples of the worst. Trolls are good as an army, they suffer for being one of the first in CiD, and that the so called meta is dealing with multiwounds with taf/healing. Happens. When SotM was realesed we were in the top of the curve, when next CiD for us will realese maybe we will come back with a bang
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 15, 2019 7:18:46 GMT
I think snoozer makes a very good point about having some ranged element in your lists. I feel much more comfortable in a combined arms approach these days than a pure melee list, because the latter just runs forward and hopes for the best, having very few ways to scalpel out key solos (hello Lord of the Feast) or unit attachments (hello to you to Tharn Ravager Chieftain) Also, with the "rise" of Grievous Wounds (really, it's just a couple of models here and there) I would seriously consider Gargossals for a battle group, also because other factions like to use them and they can be an effective counter against each other. Trolls has a couple of great ones, they are immune to Grievous Wounds, offer a semi-strong ranged presence and impressive melee output. Thinking about it, a spell saying "target model can have damage removed from it regardless of other effects for a round" would actually be pretty cool. Maybe for a turn, so Rapid Healing can still be countered. Sounds pretty thematic for Trolls as well, something like having their regeneration going into overdrive.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Apr 15, 2019 8:28:07 GMT
I think snoozer makes a very good point about having some ranged element in your lists. I feel much more comfortable in a combined arms approach these days than a pure melee list, because the latter just runs forward and hopes for the best, having very few ways to scalpel out key solos (hello Lord of the Feast) or unit attachments (hello to you to Tharn Ravager Chieftain) Also, with the "rise" of Grievous Wounds (really, it's just a couple of models here and there) I would seriously consider Gargossals for a battle group, also because other factions like to use them and they can be an effective counter against each other. Trolls has a couple of great ones, they are immune to Grievous Wounds, offer a semi-strong ranged presence and impressive melee output. Thinking about it, a spell saying "target model can have damage removed from it regardless of other effects for a round" would actually be pretty cool. Maybe for a turn, so Rapid Healing can still be countered. Sounds pretty thematic for Trolls as well, something like having their regeneration going into overdrive. Cool rule but I would prefer this arms race to stop. At first there is to much tough and rapid healing, then there is to much anti healing so lets introduce anti-anit-healing? Please no We already have enough cards which are full of rules and they barely fit. This game doesn't need more rules
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Post by Gamingdevil on Apr 15, 2019 8:29:05 GMT
Cool rule but I would prefer this arms race to stop. At first there is to much tough and rapid healing, then there is to much anti healing so lets introduce anti-anit-healing? Please no We already have enough cards which are full of rules and they barely fit. This game doesn't need more rules Oh, I agree, just sounded cool in my head
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Apr 15, 2019 13:35:52 GMT
Lets start with PoD: PoD I think is best compared to skorne Imperial Warhost. Both armies want to brick and both themes basicly run without units. (Krielstone and beast handlers are similar unit) What makes them different as Skorne can run IW but trolls do not run PoD? Beasts I think are quite same prize and I think running two Agonziers to spread out is quite rare. - Battle-engines? - Skorne better fury handling? - Skorne better beast casters? - More free points on theme? Skorne can definitely run several beasts easier, but I think none of those points are really breaking the theme. Can someone point why PoD is unplayable but skorne can play IW as competitive list pair? And don't get me wrong, getting free dhunias knot or cheaper runeshapers or better lesser warlock would definitely make life easier, but I still think PoD list don't look that different compared to IW lists. IW lets you take Kreas and Agonizers for free which is already infinetly better than most potential freebies in PoD. Warbeast there also gain Hyper Agressive, while Troll Warbeasts gain nothing. Also Madeakalets her entire battlegroup gain grievous wounds, which is really good in todays meta, as we all noticed. I would not say PoD is unplayable, but the there benefits there are so... meh. Edit: Oh and it probably also doesnt help that Skorne have access to an actually good lesser warlock in Zaadesh while PoD is stuck with... Horgle...
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Apr 15, 2019 15:58:57 GMT
Cool rule but I would prefer this arms race to stop. At first there is to much tough and rapid healing, then there is to much anti healing so lets introduce anti-anit-healing? Please no We already have enough cards which are full of rules and they barely fit. This game doesn't need more rules Funny, that was the PP rationale for the change to MK3! That and greater control of the interactions of the growing catalog of models. Salt: Alas that control method seems to be allowing models to languish in MK3 initial-reset stats/abilities (eg Burrowers, Skinner, Caber, many in my other factions). This method has kept the tournament 'played' models quite predictable... MK3 was also the edition, PP noted, in which model/unit stats and abilities were SUPPOSED TO MATTER for distinction and performance. In our faction, TBs DEF 12 being of the vast majority, this means that healing (Tough is performed as healing in MK3 as opposed to 'not taking damage') of some type IS our distinction and performance edge or hinge. Taken away, what does our faction hinge on? Not higher Fury beasts-than-any-other-faction anymore (that was fun!) /salt Of course TBs haven't slipped, but other factions do have more answers and do provide more FUN. Right now. Berserking apparating Doomreavers, in tides, who spread out and can be respawned? Sign me up. 2" melee axe-wielding wolf men who spread out and generate another attack with each kill they make, or use the corpse blood of their enemy to make stronger or more accurate attacks? Yum. Religious crazies setting the world on fire from afar with blessed massive war engines of Destruction? I'll drink that cool-aid! I'm hard-pressed right now to come up with a press release for TBs that matches those above... And tactics/play solutions suggestions? Best done in specific threads on an opposing army/model, as I've seen in other faction boards, specific threads. I'll leave the high level ones to the stalwart tourney players who know that meta better. For me, I've chosen to skew my TBs play towards assassination tech, damn the attrition and scenario control points! 'Cause if I'm not having fun with my TBs game play adapting to the tourney-driven scene, I must adjust my game play goal(s) back to the most fundamental goal, that of enjoying the game. Side note: Just letting Horgle take ANY light, or heavy for that matter, would be a small, GREAT fix to PoD and other list diversity possibilities. The severe bull-manure fluff limitations he, and Una to a smaller extent, is subject to is rather repressive, and unnecessary, or so says my Caine0, Denny0, Sevvy0, and Sorscha0! (They have been fun to run in lists! Even losing lists!)
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Post by cplmustard on Apr 15, 2019 20:57:44 GMT
Tharn have been out for months with no one having a good answer for them yet. Broken Coast, Adepticon Masters and Champions, Barcelona Masters, all won by Circle and many with Circle mirror finals in the last months or so. I don't think struggling against Circle is indicative of anyone not trying or looking to adapt, they look pretty freaking shiny to the rest of the world apparently. Did anyone even mention Legion? I missed it if they did.
RE: Broken Coast, I was at that tournament and the top two teams had one circle player between them. Aaron's a good player but it's not like he carried that team, skorne and menoth are much scarier for us in my opinion. I played madrak1 in band with 2x champs gk and kriel warriors against Aaron's mohsar list in the monthly before broken coast and beat it by clock, the trick is to keep warders around to shield guard the lotf until you can snipe him out with the glacier king + spirit chaser, bloodpack are tough but if you can maintain your spacing you won't lose too many champs. If mohsar can't assassinate he has to play a much more patient game which I think we can win, wormwood should be winnable too since a counter feat can blunt his and between skaldi and a fellcaller you'll have a lot of pathfinder. Frankly I don't think we have any option but to play band into circle at the moment, anti-tough is too important in that matchup, it's not a slam dunk by any means but definitely doable into the majority of popular circle lists.
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