|
Post by sand20go on Apr 3, 2019 18:56:39 GMT
Lost a game against Sylvestro in Standoff with a pretty standard Victor+stuff Vlad 2 AC list. Went first and then through some solid play (getting a contesting tanker pushed out with trancer killed off by his controller for the push was pretty smart) fell behind 3-0. Didn't see the key way he would score the remainder and lost.
But it struck me that there is a pretty important calculation that I am sure great players know but which I am still not good enough on - thinking seriously about where you want a model to be at the end of your second turn. In my case I had an "opening" (in a very chess-like way of using that word) that I should have used to have Victor toeing in a key zone and with the shocktroopers screening to keep the Toro off him. Make that opening and it would have put my opponent MUCH more on the back foot. Not do it (which I didn't) and Victor isn't contesting until 3 and by that time way on the back foot with scenario.
It gets at something that I think is important because Khador can be slow - how do I ensure that I am where I want to be with scenario when we start scoring (aka bottom of 2). Plan out that move. See how it will open.
(BTW - this is such my bug-a-boo with the Victor. It is SO tempting to shoot. I am not sure he shouldn't be usually just running both t1 and T2.)
|
|
|
Post by Mr.Human on Apr 3, 2019 20:47:21 GMT
With slow khador it might not be such a bad idea to go second (depends of course on a lot of things!). Your Victor can run first and walk and shoot the next turn. With assail you get one inch to spare the first turn, from depo 10 + 9 + 4 = enough to toe and shoot.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Apr 3, 2019 21:48:56 GMT
With slow khador it might not be such a bad idea to go second (depends of course on a lot of things!). Your Victor can run first and walk and shoot the next turn. With assail you get one inch to spare the first turn, from depo 10 + 9 + 4 = enough to toe and shoot. Perhaps. I am not sure going second is good at ALL into Sylvestro lists with Railless'es. Superfuel is such a broken rule. It is VERY difficult to deal with Railess at the 22-23 inch line. You then need to somehow SPREAD OUT while still being somewhat revelent on scenario. He, in turn, feats and sprays you off the table. Vlad CAN come back (possibly) depending on what he has left but it is pretty trivial to remove a ton of AC models with all those sprays. Vulcan can run 14 so is at the 21 inch line.
The good news is that you CAN counter deploy and use Windblast to modestly deal with things.
The other challenge with going second is that you have to make a challenging choice with the Victor - do you give up a turn of shooting which can light halbies on fire or do you accept that the next turn you are getting hard jammed by super tough halbies. And remember, you gotta get back to HIS zone (or clear one of the circles) in standoff cause he is going to be faster than you.
But my big point is that you gotta think a turn ahead here - especially with the Victor. Where do I want that big centerpiece model on turn 2 so I can both be effective with it _AND_ be beneficial in scenario.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Apr 4, 2019 0:45:51 GMT
Sand, of course you’re right. Thinking about Turn 2 positioning is key for unpacking. Regarding Victor, I believe it’s usually a trap to use his gun at the bottom of Turn 1. Running is almost always the right move Turn 1.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Apr 4, 2019 6:46:14 GMT
Regarding Victor, I believe it’s usually a trap to use his gun at the bottom of Turn 1. Running is almost always the right move Turn 1. Agreed. Unless an opponent really messes up (things like leaving a caster on 0 camp within walk + shoot range on Turn 1 if you go second), better to get up the board with Victor. Important for scenario, but also for keeping Victor as a credible melee threat which can dictate quite a bit of opposing positioning.
|
|
|
Post by Armchair Warrior on Apr 4, 2019 12:44:20 GMT
Regarding Victor, I believe it’s usually a trap to use his gun at the bottom of Turn 1. Running is almost always the right move Turn 1. Agreed. Unless an opponent really messes up (things like leaving a caster on 0 camp within walk + shoot range on Turn 1 if you go second), better to get up the board with Victor. Important for scenario, but also for keeping Victor as a credible melee threat which can dictate quite a bit of opposing positioning. I’ll add this to that: His secondary guns are useful now with range 12, but not if you walk 1st turn. Run 1, walk 2, you’re threatening stuff 31” up the board. With Vlad 1-2 and S&P or HoF those secondary guns can hurt.
|
|
|
Post by steeltitan on Apr 5, 2019 8:28:35 GMT
It gets at something that I think is important because Khador can be slow - how do I ensure that I am where I want to be with scenario when we start scoring (aka bottom of 2). Plan out that move. See how it will open.
Coming back to the general topic and sharing some of my thoughts: 1. I almost always regret not running the first turn if I did not do so. For me this mostly applies to Behemoth or Destroyers because I don't own Victor and don't use Conquest much. It's tempting to take a few shots that first turn, maybe get some good AOE deviations, but it almost always puts you in a bad position to influence the game later. As such, note to my future self: ALWAYS run first turn, board positioning is more important than dealing some early-game damage. Obviously there are exceptions but the more you can fall back on "95% of the time I do X" the better you will be managing your clock. 2. Regarding planning on where you want models to be, sure. I find those decisions a bit easier if you play a huge base because terrain dictates where you can go and even if it doesn't, the scenario/zones generally make it a fairly easy decision where you want to park your colossal for the game and be like 'nope'. However, the thought process is also important for other pieces. Firstly, your jacks have to reach their rectangular zone in time. Can they do it by walking twice or is there terrain in the way? You likely have to run first turn anyway, if you went first. Does your opponent have any models or spells that push or slam? If so, you have to count on getting deeper into the zone versus just toe-ing, which is very tempting with our slow jacks. Another thing I have done wrong many times is making sure your solos can easily be on a flag at the end of 2 by just walking forward twice (e.g. a forge seer just needs to 'walk, empower, walk, empower, sit on flag). I found myself having to run that second turn and giving up an action, just because I deployed them too far to the side or something. I should make my life easier to just always plop down a solo right opposite from my flag...done, no thinking required. 3. A more difficult exercise is planning for contesting far-away zones/objectives/flags with your typical Khador army. I haven't really figured this out without just blatantly sacrificing models...I typically just let them have the point and hope I can keep up. Bad bad bad...
|
|
smoth
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
|
Post by smoth on Apr 21, 2019 2:22:58 GMT
Loving this post!
Sadly with khador, first turn is “run your dudemans” and little else.we have little choice
|
|