|
Post by reddust82 on Mar 17, 2019 18:05:18 GMT
(TL;DR - The list starts in post #2. This first post is some background information and general theorizing, though I encourage you to please read it so you know where I'm at and where some of my "needs" are. Thanks!)
-----------------------------------------------------
First, let me say a big "thank you" to everyone who posted in my "trashed by Zaadesh" thread. I really appreciate the feedback. And I'm hoping this thread might be something of a response on my part to the feedback I received. Vlad 2 was mentioned in that thread (many other places as well) as a top warcaster for Armored Corp, so I gave him a look. Funny anecdote: I came into Warmachine some years ago, transplanting from Warhammer 40k, took one look at Vlad and rejected him outright due to his massive space marine-like shoulder pads. Being so disillusioned with GW and hating SM so much, I couldn't really even see Vlad for what he is, a really cool warcaster with lots of awesome abilities.
I'm not really intending this thread to form a tactica, per se, but I do have a lot of questions, many of them quite fundamental, on how Vlad and even the basic Armored Corp theme actually plays in the first place. My gaming group consists of four guys. We usually play no more often than once every other week and we're pretty casual (for the most part), but it's the sort of casual where you aren't going to throw a fit if you lose, but you really do want to play your best game and play to win. I think we're all of the mindset that if you play your best and still lose, well, it was still a good game and everyone has fun. So on the one hand, we don't take things too seriously, but on the other hand, when we're in the game, we're playing to WIN. Anyway, I picked up Khador Armored Corp when we first started, mostly pairing Butcher1 or Butcher3 with Run and stuck with that pretty consistently while the other guys sort of tried various things out took a while to get settled in. During that time I had a lot of success, I think in large part because I was more experienced with my list due to consistent play, than they were with theirs. But now everyone has settled in and, as proven by the Zaadesh list, really gotten a handle on what they're doing. And now I realize that I really only know one way to play, the way I've been playing all along, which focuses a lot on Butcher and Ruin being an awesome team and, if I"m honest, my opponents simply not being as good with their lists as I was with mine. But now that's changed and they've sort of figured out my style.
So it's time to adapt and overcome. I can't just say, "Ok, anything within 13" of Ruin is going to die." And this is where I really need to learn the most: having significantly shortened charge ranges. My other two factions that I dabble in are Thyra in Menoth (just started this collection) and Iona in Circle Tharn. Now, Tharn can have some crazy charge ranges and general threat projection with the likes of Lord of the Feast. I like this. But then I look at Armored Corp without the benefit of Butcher and his bond with Ruin and I'm like, "I'll never get an alpha off . . ." And I know Khador is supposed to be durable, but goodness, it doesn't make me feel good at all knowing I might not be able to dictate the first clash of battle (I'm very used to having the ability to do that, obviously).
I look at the devastator in the list below and I see, with Vlad's help, a 10" charge threat range, a 9.5" slam threat range. Will this guy ever get to actually charge/slam? My counter thought is that with Vlad, my "alpha" isn't going to be my jacks, but my warriors who are buffed by his feat. So maybe I just need to learn how to position where the warjacks are the followup rather than the spear tip? In any case, if anyone can offer examples or a more in depth explanation of how AC can take the alpha and come back and still dominate a game, I'd really appreciate some practical experience in that area.
Another question that has to do with speed is the inclusion of MoW kovniks. The list below has two and that feels right, but that's 8 whole points devoted to simply making things a bit faster. And believe me, I get the beauty of an 11" threat range on Shocks or Demos, but 8 points is a lot. (BTW, it's been my assumption that you can't stack desperate pace to give a single unit +4" movement, right?)
This request might seem a bit backward, but if you could, let me know what the 75 point list below would be good into in terms of a two list format. In other words, I've made this list as a basic / default list, what do you think it would play well into and what would you change to make a list that would make up for the first list's deficiencies? Unfortunately, for the immediate future I don't have the models to play outside AC. Is AC able to make two lists that can do two significantly different things?
Finally, and this is probably the hardest part of all this, my group often plays 2 on 2, so each person has 35 points. I know this isn't a usual tournament thing so it might not get a lot of tactical coverage, but I really struggle making AC lists at 35 points, no matter what caster I'm using. I have a Tharn and Exemplar lists at 35 points that I really enjoy and they feel complete to me. But I haven't been able to get that from AC yet. So I also included a 35 point Vlad2 list. What makes this even more difficult is that I don't really want to buy models that ONLY work in 35 points and that I wouldn't use them at 75 points.
Also, if anyone can point me to any current, well done battle reports that feature Armored Corp, I'd really appreciate it. Text/Picture based or YouTube, whichever is fine (as long at the YT clips aren't done in shaky cam) and much appreciated.
In any case, please find the lists in the next post!
|
|
|
Post by reddust82 on Mar 17, 2019 18:12:23 GMT
Here's my 75 point Vlad 2 list, though it it's actually only 73/75, so any suggestions for those last two points or however else you might change things to utilize those points are very welcome.
Vlad2 -Greylord Adjunct -Devastator -Juggernaut MoW Strike Tanker MoW Suppression Tanker MoW Kovnik MoW Kovnik Kommandant Atanas, et al. MoW Shocktroopers w/ CA MoW Shocktroopers w/ CA MoW Demolition Corps w/ Dragos
I would love to include Kayazy Eliminators, an Assault Chariot or even a Drakhun, but I really have no idea what I'd do to get any of those guys in there. Also, there's nothing sacred about this list. Nothing, IMO, is too sacrosanct that it can't be replaced. So if I'm totally off the mark, feel free to rip it apart.
Then there's the 35 point list.
1st Version:
Vlad2 -Devastator -Juggernaut Kommandant Atanas, et al. MoW Shocktroopers w/ CA MoW Demolition Corps w/ Dragos (min)
2nd Version:
Vlad2 -Devastator -Juggernaut MoW Kovnik MoW Drakhun MoW Shocktroopers w/ CA Kayazy Eliminators
Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Mar 17, 2019 18:39:22 GMT
Fairly quick and a few points:
1 - 9.5" charge/trample/slam. You can still pull these off, as a second wave (as you note). If you want a jack to get early slams in (and that is not a bad tactic at all), then a Mad Dog is not bad at it with Assail. I've written about it before, back when the Mad Dog was MAT5. At MAT6 it is a little better at the job. But probably only worth it if you really are just looking for a slam/trample bot.
2 - No double stacking Desperate Pace. No double stacking of the same rule, in fact.
3 - 2 Kovniks isn't bad. They are decent feat targets on occasion, are useful in scenario play and are pretty nice pieces to have available in the late game.
4 - More tankers is usually a good idea with Armored Corps generally. They are definitely one of the strengths of the theme.
5 - I would consider Bombardiers over Demos, simply as Hand of Fate on Bombardiers can be very nasty. But then I don't like max Demo Corps (just too squishy in theme). Min Demo Corps hiding behind Shocktroopers waiting to Tactician charge through I have found more valuable.
6 - For AC that plays differently, Sorscha3 seems a likely choice, as you want to run more (and place more emphasis on) jacks.
|
|
|
Post by reddust82 on Mar 17, 2019 19:30:58 GMT
- More tankers is usually a good idea with Armored Corps generally. They are definitely one of the strengths of the theme.
This might be one of the areas where I'm just missing it. I totally see how strike and suppression tankers are great support units, but it never seems like I can bring both types to bear in the same game. Maybe it's just my meta where the guys tend to swing to extremes, either battlegroup heavy (strike tankers) or infantry heavy (suppression tankers). But I see the same suggestion you've made all over the place, some people even saying that you start your list with two of each right off the bat. Can you (or anyone) please explain to me how it is that tankers are so foundational to so many people's lists?
|
|
sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
|
Post by sorokin on Mar 17, 2019 21:22:15 GMT
You actually rarely see people play more than two non-character MoW Units. Double Shocktroopers, or Shocktroopers and Demokorps (always max units, always with CA) are usually enough, so if you want to cut back on points, I'd cut the second Shocktrooper unit.
Suppression Tankers do one thing and they do it very well, which is controlling crowds. They mince infantry with their spray and give you some decent scenario presence with bulldoze. Both of these aspects are very important for AC as the units have a pretty low volume of bodies and attacks, so you will falter on attrition and scenarios against lists that simply bring more bodies than you.
|
|
|
Post by reddust82 on Mar 18, 2019 1:52:17 GMT
How about something like this if I dropped a unit of shocks?
War Room Army
Khador - V2 - 75 pts B
Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Drakhun - PC: 9 - Man-O-War Drakhun (Continued) Gobber Tinker - PC: 2
Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 4 Grunts: 14 - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich - PC: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
THEME: Armored Corps ---
GENERATED : 03/17/2019 21:51:36 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Mar 18, 2019 8:19:23 GMT
I totally see how strike and suppression tankers are great support units, but it never seems like I can bring both types to bear in the same game. Maybe it's just my meta where the guys tend to swing to extremes, either battlegroup heavy (strike tankers) or infantry heavy (suppression tankers). But I see the same suggestion you've made all over the place, some people even saying that you start your list with two of each right off the bat. Can you (or anyone) please explain to me how it is that tankers are so foundational to so many people's lists? Strike Tankers should always have some decent targets due to the mandatory presence of battlegroups. They're also decent solo-hunters, which is something AC can struggle with.
Suppression Tankers are more match-up dependent. But POW14 shooting can usually find a target, unless you only up against ARM20+ vs shooting lists (say...Skorne beast bricks?).
But both Tankers have one other really important attribute, which is that they are superb scenario pieces. You can use them for contesting a zone, knowing that removing an ARM21 8 box models is not something which can be done trivially. Bulldoze can also get them into some interesting places. Not only does this keep scenario live, but you may be able to identify opposing models which are likely to try and remove the Tanker if your opponent is playing scenario. That can help set up favourable trades.
Having some solos which can simply do scenario work is important. WGK lists sometimes suffer from this, such that some lists include a Artillery Kapitan more or less for this purpose. Wolves of Winter can have a similar problem, because the solos which are invariably included (Koldun Lords) are normally doing something to contribute, so may not be in the right place at the right time for scenario purposes. If your Suppression Tankers don't have many good targets in a game, just designate them as your scenario pieces for the rest of the game. They'll do that job well.
|
|
sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
|
Post by sorokin on Mar 18, 2019 10:31:26 GMT
How about something like this if I dropped a unit of shocks? List Look pretty solid! I'd just recommend testing if you don't like a Destroyer over the Devestator more, as the Bombard + Guidance from the Adjunct ignore a whole bunch of stuff and turns it into an exellent solo hunter. The Dev is better for scenario, so it is a matter of personal preference that warrants testing imo.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Mar 18, 2019 11:53:35 GMT
How about something like this if I dropped a unit of shocks? List Look pretty solid! I'd just recommend testing if you don't like a Destroyer over the Devestator more, as the Bombard + Guidance from the Adjunct ignore a whole bunch of stuff and turns it into an exellent solo hunter. The Dev is better for scenario, so it is a matter of personal preference that warrants testing imo. I like the destroyer a lot theses days, and it's a great guidance target for the Adjunct. I also like it for scenario, it's a jack that can stay in a zone (say in a scenario like spread the net) and still do some work because range 14 on a gun is good. The devastator is good for contesting the zone on the other side of the table, the destroyer is good for scoring zones on your side of the board and still do some work. I've yet to regret fielding the destroyer since the adjunct is out.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Mar 18, 2019 16:41:47 GMT
I played an all comers Vlad2 list with a unit of each flavor, Altanas, Tinker, Kovnik, double supressions and a Victor as my foundation piece. It played fine. About 60% win rate.
I would suggest that list TO START as a way of learning AC and its tricks. I know the current hotness is to drop to 2 units and 4 tankers (and my specialized variant does that) but by having all three you force yourself to learn more tricks and rules and once you start to fine tune you will be a better player.
What you are going to find in your meta is the importance of thinking about the Alpha WITH THE INFANTRY. So whereas you have been using Ruin as your missile you are going to find, in many games, it is your DemoCorp that do that trick.
Here is a typical Vlad2 alpha run with AC.
1) ON the approach (so the Turn BEFORE you alpha strongly consider using your mini-feat (band of brothers). You want to minimize your losses. Remember that Dragos can not get the feat token (he is a character) so you can afford to lose just ONE democorp member if you roll up just 4 tokens on Feat and want to max out damage.
2) You are also going to want to Tough with Altanas AND, absent very high value AOEs, put the demoCorps in 2 man B2B. THat gives them no knock down tough.
3) Don't lose Dragos. He will want to keep vengeance. If he dies it doesn't trigger ;-(
4) You will want Hand of Fate on something else this turn prior. Victor is a solid target. Ditto the Bombers. If you were able to upkeep you will then move that unit/model, fire, and then activate Vlad and "hot swap" it over the demoCorp, feat, and then watch the fund.
5) An important trick to further increase the output of your democorp will to have arcane might on Vlad. When your democorp goes into a juicy target you want to boost the hit. With Hand of Fate that is rolling 4 dice, drooping lowest. You have a VERY solid chance of rolling the critical. Which means the target is frozen. Which with Shatter means you are rolling an extra damage dice. This triggers on the FIRST model (attack before damage) so it is house money. That would be a POW 19 Weaponmaster under Hand of Fate. That WILL wreck lots of stuff.
6) This biggest mistake people make with the Victor in this matchup (me included) is being TOOOOOO SLLLOOOOOWWW with it. Don't be greedy and want to just move 4 and shoot. Rather, you will often be MUCH better running the first (and sometimes the second) turn to get him in the right place. While lighting stuff on fire is wonderful AC can get jammed out on scenario even with the Advanced move.
7) AC's biggest challenge in many meta's is that it is a relatively low model count army. Vlad's feat allows you to punch back HARD but it will not be great if you lose a ton of models on the approach. Minimize that.
8) After a while (I would suggest a good 20 games) you can then start to tweak. AC is great because you can start to complement your off list. Slos in that off list? Consider Chariots and Drakhuns for fast AC. Off list doesn't like shooting Huge bases (my issue)? Tweak Vlad to get in Strike tankers and debuffers like hutchuck. Weaponmaster spam got you down? Look at a min unit of Kayazy or some eliminators to cheaply screen your stuff and use anatomical to remove things like Sentinals so you don't have to take those guys on the chin.
|
|
|
Post by reddust82 on Mar 18, 2019 18:24:39 GMT
Excellent comments from everyone! You’ve given me a ton to consider! I have another list variant here. I really like the addition of the kayazy eliminators. I think they could cause some major havoc under blad’s feat. I put the second Kovnik back in because after some thought, I think that extra opportunity for an extra 2” would offer excellent utility. Maybe even just getting that suppression tanker up the board faster or whatever.
My biggest question is the drakhun. I really like it in concept, both rules-wise and model-wise. But 9 points is a lot... having said that, he should be able to do some significant work under vlad’s feat as well. Comments on the addition if the drakhun would be particularly welcome.
All in all, this list makes me happy in its speedand variety. I feel like the opponent can’t look at it and immediately oredict the first three turns. What do you think?
War Room Army
Khador - V2 - 75 pts B
Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Vladimir Tzepesci, The Dark Champion - WJ: +27 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 14) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Drakhun - PC: 9 - Man-O-War Drakhun (Continued) Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4
Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7 Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 4 Grunts: 14 - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich - PC: 0 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
THEME: Armored Corps ---
GENERATED : 03/18/2019 14:18:42 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Mar 18, 2019 19:49:18 GMT
FYI - Kovnik can only desperate pace UNITS, not Solos.
|
|
|
Post by reddust82 on Mar 18, 2019 21:31:50 GMT
FYI - Kovnik can only desperate pace UNITS, not Solos. Ah, thanks for that. Shows what happens when you’ve been playing a while but you also haven’t actually looked at the card/rule in a while!
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on Mar 19, 2019 12:15:15 GMT
A few points, although I haven't played in a while now.
1) I second the Destroyer. I've always found them surprisingly useful as zone-holders, and with the Adjunct they're very handy things to have around.
2) With the Tankers, I think people generally take all 4 because they often cover weaknesses in your list. The Suppression Tankers are good into swarms, and the Strikes are great at softening up big targets and applying GW. But you should always think about it in terms of what your list needs. I rarely take Suppression Tankers because I prefer the Assault Chariot for anti-infantry. But if I took the Siege Chariot, I'd probably not take the Strike Tankers.
3) If you've got the points, there's nothing wrong with a second Kovnik. But it's one of the first things to go if I need to shave some points.
4) The Drakhun is a beast, but he's an expensive beast with only one attack. You have to use him like a really chunky scalpel rather than a wrecking ball. He is pretty hard to kill on feat turn, but not invincible.
|
|
|
Post by auraco on Mar 19, 2019 13:00:21 GMT
Important point about the tankers. They provide an interesting volume of attack what never feels wasted, even in battlegroup centric lists there is usually support that the suppression tanker can targets, and it still has a pow 14 spray, which is enough to damage most stuff. The strike tanker really shine because of dual attack, if you can get a charge in, you can get 3 attack out of the tanker and these are good quality attacks, 2 mat 7 pow 12 attack is good and you alway get the shot with the AP gun. The 7,5'' threat range is short but when playing armored corps it's not usually a problem to have charge targets for the tanker and with bulldoze it's usually fairly easy to get them in melee with two models for them to get use out of all their attacks.
|
|