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Post by reddust82 on Mar 14, 2019 1:28:59 GMT
Ok, a few disclaimers. My group of friends were going to play a 2 on 2 game tonight but one guy had to cancel so it ended up being my khador vs skorne. I was originally going to play Menoth at 35 points but the only force I have enough models in for a full 75 point game is khador, which I haven't played in months. So it was a sudden switch to a faction I'm rusty with and a last minute thrown together list vs my opponent's "carefully honed" Zaadesh list that he's been sitting on and theorizing about for months... so that could be where the disparity came from... and the sudden switch and playing what I wasn't familiar with led me to just make so many mistakes that I won't even go into detail about. On top of that, I was looking for a nice relaxing beer and pretzels game goofing around in a team game, I was really too tired to get into a serious game and should have begged off in the first place.
Anyway, enough excuses. Sitting around after the game, my opponent, myself and the third guy as a bystander, we were just like, "Dang, that Zaadesh list is nasty... even without in-game mistakes, I'm not sure what you could have done..."
Without further ado, first the Zaadesh list then my thrown together list.
War Room Army Skorne - Beast Theme: Imperial Warhost 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Lord Tyrant Zaadesh - WB: +28 - Aptimus Marketh - PC: 0 - Bronzeback Titan - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Titan Sentry - PC: 15 - Agonizer - PC: 0 - Titan Sentry - PC: 15 - Basilisk Krea - PC: 0 Siege Animantarax - PC: 17 Siege Animantarax - PC: 17 Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 7 THEME: Imperial Warhost --- GENERATED : 03/13/2019 16:56:25 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
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War Room Army
Khador - B1 - 75 pts
Theme: Armored Corps 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher of Khardov - WJ: +28 - Greylord Adjunct - PC: 4 - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Juggernaut - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
Man-O-War Kovnik - PC: 4 Man-O-War Strike Tanker - PC: 5 Man-O-War Suppression Tanker - PC: 0
Man-O-War Shocktroopers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Shocktrooper Officer - PC: 4 Man-O-War Demolition Corps - Leader & 4 Grunts: 14 - Sergeant Dragos Dragadovich - PC: 0 Man-O-War Bombardiers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 16 - Man-O-War Bombardier Officer - PC: 0 Kommandant Atanas Arconovich & Standard - Arconovich & Standard Bearer: 7 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3
THEME: Armored Corps ---
GENERATED : 03/13/2019 17:17:11 BUILD ID : 2069.18-10-06
The mission was Recon and basically his derp turtles went up one flank and everything else went up the other. I was able to send my shocktroopers and strike tanker to take the flag and contest the zone where the derp turtles were. That side of the board, surprisingly, was doing just fine. With iron flesh, shield wall and tough, my opponent couldn't shift the troopers with the guns on the turtles and he was reluctant to take fire from the strike tanker. Also, ruin was basically in the middle of the board and could have diverted to take out a turtle if he needed. So that side of the board, I was fine with.
The problem was that everything else he had was in a brick moving up the other side and he was able to move up and just keep screening his force with Zaadesh's smoke spell to keep me from any profitable charge lanes. And yeah, I could have given eyeless sight to one of my jacks through the adjunct, but I only had two jacks and I didn't figure it'd be wise to suicide one to MAYBE kill a titan... and Zaadesh's feat turn/round was just a nightmare...
Anway, this wasn't really intended to be a battle report so I'm not going to get into the details, but it was bad. Now, it could very easily that the list I put together was just not a good match up. On top of that, add my mistakes, many of them large (forgetting that I'd already used the kovnik's extra 2" on another unit but counting on it to help the hammers walk up through smoke to still get in range during Butcher's feat, amongst other things), and it just wasn't a good night. But again, I'm just not sure what I'd take next time if I knew I was going to be facing the same list?
So what would you bring if you knew that Zaadesh, two derp turtles and a big bundle of rock hard titan crazy was going to be coming at you?
As one last point, I'm not pretending to be anywhere near good at this game, so it might be that you can look at these lists and say, "I know exactly why this went so bad." If that's the case, then I'd love advice! I welcome any and all constructive criticism as long as it's actually constructive :-) Thanks!
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mrtuna
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by mrtuna on Mar 14, 2019 2:49:05 GMT
Can’t help play without seeing more. But you brought a weak caster that doesn’t help theme. It’s gonns be hard. Butcher 1 AC isn’t going to beat a well tuned list right now.
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Post by jdeckert on Mar 14, 2019 8:23:45 GMT
Since the question is "what list would you bring," I'd say a Wolves of Winter list with lots of doom reavers. I don't think the battle engines can kill enough infantry, and you can spread them out enough that he won't be able to prevent them all from charging via his cloud wall. Wolves of Winter is good into a lot of Skorne.
If you want to stick with Armored Corps, Vlad2 would probably be better than Butcher1 here (and is generally a great AC caster). He can wind blast the clouds away, which is a big deal.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 14, 2019 8:48:29 GMT
I'm not an active player these days and was never very competitive, so take everything that I say with a grain of salt, but your basic list doesn't look too bad, you might just need to get a little bit more accustomed to playing it, and maybe try some different casters. Butcher doesn't bring speed buffs, so I feel like you either want REALLY resilient models with him (clamjacks, more shockies and less demos) that can take the alpha, or you want to bring some fast models that can make up for his shortcoming. BTW, I wonder if putting Iron Flesh on the demos would have worked better? Shocktroopers are already quite tough, maybe they don't need the extra ARM? Especially since you were just using them to hold a zone and had all your infantry on the other side where they were vulnerable (rather than using the shocktroopers as a wall to protect your other infantry as it moved up).
As Jdeckert mentioned Vlad 2 is considered to be one of the best casters for running MOW right now - and I don't know if you've heard but Jdeckert IS always right after all. I'm going to randomly suggest Strakhov 2 as an option however, if Vlad doesn't tickle your fancy. Not because I know that he'll work well or anything, but simply because he has both an ARM and a SPD buff, so you can have tough Demos and fast Shocktroopers. Plus he brings a bit of anti-cloud and anti-healing play himself. Last Stand is probably not great in Armoured Corps, but it can still come in handy (maybe bring some cheap Mercs with Combined Melee Attack?). Hopefully other forumites can weight on whether this is actually a good idea or not.
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Post by reddust82 on Mar 14, 2019 10:51:33 GMT
Thank you guys for the replies. Honestly, pretty much everyone is pointing at the list and the caster, which I’m not surprised about. Unfortunately my model selection is pretty limited. I can pretty much only field AC. I have sorscha1, butcher 1 and 3 and irusk 2. I was initially going to play butcher 3, but despite how effective he can be, sometimes I don’t like that it’s all about him and he really does nothing for the rest of the army. But that’s my own hang up. I definitely do need to branch out in my model selection.
In that vein, my small Meta (armies I might face) is skorne, Cryx, menoth, convergence and cygnar. I was previously thinking that winterguard would be my next theme to start collecting. Thoughts on that and an appropriate caster? I was actually thinking B3 with Sorscha0 to get Ruin and Beast09 to go with the winterguard. Any advice? So my list pairing would be AC and Winterguard? Who would you consider to be the absolute best AC caster? Is it Vlad 2 as mentioned a few times above?
*edit*. I almost forgot to ask. Concerning the Titan Death Star... 4 titans with the annoying little guys behind that have the area debuffs on your attacks with Zaadesh right there throwing out clouds and himself being a reserve threat... what would you bring and, more importantly, how would you go about cracking that nut?
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Post by borderprince on Mar 14, 2019 12:44:04 GMT
In terms of what you're mentioned, consider Irusk2 in Armored Corps. That gives you some options:
(i) speed boost for jacks from Energiser;
(ii) ranged damage boost every turn with Fire For Effect. Put it on one of the Bombardiers and have them lead a CRA. POW20+3D6 damage is helpful against most things (and creates an assassination threat due to Arcing Fire). Use the Adjunct to solve the cloud issue for this one shot;
(iii) saved points, as you don't need to add Atanas.
As you also lose Ruin from Butcher, that give you 23 points to play with. I'd consider at least a Marauder or a Kodiak. Both the Marauder and Kodiak can do work with one Focus each via Combo-Smite or Grad and Smash respectively. They're also useful for future lists you build. That still leaves more points for flex. You could consider a merc solo addition, a unit of Kayazy Eliminators or more Tankers. Eliminators would give you a small unit that is fast enough to run around behind the beast brick.
As for dealing with the Titan Brick + support, you have some options:
(a) Break the brick up. Slams and throws are helpful here.. If you start separating the front line of Titans, you can get to the support. Sometimes it's more important to break the formation than it is to destroy the models in it;
(b) Flank it (especially on some scenarios), again you can then get to the support, or make it harder for the full force of the brick to hit at once;
(c) Play for scenario (dependent on the scenario for the game), so focus on taking out threats to your scenario win, rather than the opposing force in general. You don't always have to crack the nut.
In terms of WGK, it's a good theme. Butcher3 is good in it (Auraco here likes it). I like Vlad1 in theme, but not as simple rocket spam (too many good counters). Both Auraco and I think the WG Gun Carriage is a very valuable addition to WGK lists.
Butcher1 might work in WGK, provided you have Sorscha0 and/or Malakov1 for threat extension on your jacks.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 14, 2019 13:05:47 GMT
You know what zaadesh hates? Having his models with all their counter charging, retal striking bs frozen!!! Sorscha1 with 30 roomies. Love her!!!!
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sorokin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 775
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Post by sorokin on Mar 14, 2019 13:40:15 GMT
Vlad2 is definitely the most competitive caster for AC, but others such as Sorscha3, Irusk2 and even Malakov2 can run it very well too. As for list pairings, WGK/AC as a pairing was played in most competitive events as far as I know. Until the Wolves of Winter CID at least, after which WoW seems to replace WGK. So if doomies tickle your fancy, I'd definitely look into Wolves. sand20go seems to be on board with the idea.
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Post by michael on Mar 14, 2019 15:02:41 GMT
The problem is not so much your list, as the “rock-paper-scissors” way that themes have shaken out. You’re playing an army that relies on ARM and boxes against an army that is very, very good at destroying ARM and boxes.
As much as I dislike saying it: it is irrational to expect to perform well against a hyper-tuned list with a rusty player running a list made up of (and I am not saying this disparagingly!) basically “all the stuff I own.”
Are there ways to tweak your list? Sure. Could you hyper-tune your list to counter the Zaadesh list? Sure.
Personally, though? I would just say “Well, you have an overwhelming advantage in list selection. Can you play something different?”
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 14, 2019 18:54:06 GMT
Taking your caveats into account, it was always going to be a rough matchup. Not because of Zaadesh or anything; just because you really don't sound like you were ready for the match! Wrong army, wrong battle type, hastily constructed list, expecting a casual and getting a serious match... Yeah, that's always going to be a rough day at the office.
As to your list and brief battle report; I'd replace the Bombardiers with another unit of Shocktroopers. You ran into a common problem; you had to split your forces. Shocktroopers take one side and, as is their duty, hold it down like champs. But it means that nothing on your other flank can take a hit at all. It's all slow-moving ARM16, and it's up against counter charge and retaliatory strike. Sad times.
Butcher1 is the king of trading up. Between Fury, his feat, and himself, an army he runs can kill anything as long as it has some models left.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 14, 2019 19:00:28 GMT
Taking your caveats into account, it was always going to be a rough matchup. Not because of Zaadesh or anything; just because you really don't sound like you were ready for the match! Wrong army, wrong battle type, hastily constructed list, expecting a casual and getting a serious match... Yeah, that's always going to be a rough day at the office. As to your list and brief battle report; I'd replace the Bombardiers with another unit of Shocktroopers. You ran into a common problem; you had to split your forces. Shocktroopers take one side and, as is their duty, hold it down like champs. But it means that nothing on your other flank can take a hit at all. It's all slow-moving ARM16, and it's up against counter charge and retaliatory strike. Sad times. Butcher1 is the king of trading up. Between Fury, his feat, and himself, an army he runs can kill anything as long as it has some models left. +1. Trying to run 1-1-1 with AC in the CURRENT Steamroller packet is really hard for precisely these reasons - it is just really hard to cover both of the flanks.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Mar 14, 2019 19:38:01 GMT
Yeah i keep getting this feeling that base MoW armour should be 17 as i find 10 16 with 8 boxes just die
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Post by reddust82 on Mar 14, 2019 22:27:40 GMT
Yeah i keep getting this feeling that base MoW armour should be 17 as i find 10 16 with 8 boxes just die Just a brief comment and I’ll write more when I get home from work, but the one brief point of light was using bond of brotherhood at the right time with the demos. Due to positioning and spreading damage out then making them overkill each model at the end, it took 3 titans two turns to actually kill all the demos. It’s just that the rest of the battleplan fell apart :-). I had lined up to Engage two of the titans with the whole unit plus Drago on butcher’s feat turn but because I foolishly used the kovniks desperate pace elsewhere and then forgot about it (totally right, I wasn’t mentally prepared for this game at ALL, haha), it was unavailable when I needed it and I was only able to engage one Titan with three demos and even wife’s one of the attack rolls. So I’m not disappointed in the demos performance, really. But everything fell apart around them. I do love demos. The models. Drago. The mini feat. But I have the feeling they might be the weakest of the three units. How would you rank the units?
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 14, 2019 22:48:17 GMT
Shocktroopers > Demos > Bombardiers
- Shocktroopers are just flat-out great at their jobs, and can still output a good amount of damage. They're durable enough that sometimes they can hold up an entire flank, and they have decent damage output, and have underappreciated ranged attacks and Assault. They're good into everything.
- Demo Corps hit a bit harder, and occasionally hit a hell of a lot harder. You can't rely on the crit, but your opponent can't ignore it, especially when there's things like Blood Frenzy and Battle Lust about. Sometimes you just flatten a heavy with one or two of them. Bit fragile, though, and I think their UA is overrated in a lot of cases.
- Bombardiers inefficiently put out ranged attacks. You've got a whole list of P14, you don't need more. If you need troop clearing, the Assault Chariot is better and cheaper. You can almost get all 4 tankers for the cost of the unit, and I guarantee that's a better plan. The one caveat to this is if you're running Vlad. His abilities make the Bombardiers significantly more efficient, and their larger numbers mean they take buffs well.
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