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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 7, 2019 12:59:59 GMT
Does OW2 know her plan with the Grymkin has failed so badly that she's working for the Infernals now? Maybe she's taking them down from the inside?
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Mar 7, 2019 13:24:29 GMT
Mordecai and Valin Hauke with pretty much any khador army that can pick and chose models from any theme on top of the infernal stuff seems broken to me. Butcher3 can take Ruin and Sorscha0 on top of Mordecai and Valin Hauke, one or two koldun lords and maybe an adjunct if you only go for one koldun lord. The Shadow insidious plan gives an extra 5'' threat range to butcher3 and Butcher3 can be sloppy with his placement since mordecai has tactician so you won't have any trouble walking through your models. On top of Long shadows you can take the super shield guard to make sure Butcher3 is entirely safe from shooting. The thing with the extra movement is that just like vengeance it is completely controllable by your opponent. First thought as a Khador player is run a couple eliminators up to him, problem solved. Appart from Butcher3, I think this Vlad2 list is pretty outreageous too: [Vladimir 2] Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion [+27] - Destroyer [14] - Juggernaut [13] Koldun Lord [4] Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff [4] - Juggernaut [13] Mordecai, Master of Arms [0(5)] Umbral Guardian [0(6)] Umbral Guardian [0(6)] Valin Hauke, The Fallen Knight [7] Greylord Outriders (max) [17] Howlers (max) [15] Howlers (max) [15] Yup, seems strong. Stronger than Vlad2 running AC or WoW? I feel a lot of the perceived issues with the theme will be resolved as the Infernal solos get sorted out. A couple of them are very high on the power curve and I feel the issue mainly lies there, not with the theme. But I don't know, I've not played any games with it yet Cheers, Dave
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Post by auraco on Mar 7, 2019 13:50:52 GMT
I plan on running the Vlad2 list Friday, but to me it seems way stronger than Vlad2 AC and possibly stronger than Vlad2 Wolves (And I think Vlad2 wolves is better than Vlad2 Armored corps). With boundless charge and the feat the howlers can threat 17'' against living models, and since they have native grevious wounds there isn't much that's going to spot the berzerk on feated howlers. Not even feats and abilities like Shade4's feat, Bearka's feat, Kreoss2's Sacrosanct that can deal with wolves are going to stop you because Vaulin Hauke can easily give the entire army immune to stationnary and knocked down. Vlad2 also usually doesn't like shooting but again Vaulin Hauke just solves this problem with Long shadows. It's also fairly easily to fit a lot of models in the long shadow's range since you have tactician and clogging your own charge lanes isn't going to be an issue. The holwers also don't depend on a character command attachement (who can't be affected by Vlad2's feat) for their vengeance. I think the list can also fairly easily deal with high armor with 2 juggernaut that can threaten up to 12'' an armor debuff with the koldun lord and boost from arcane might.
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Post by michael on Mar 7, 2019 14:03:47 GMT
Folks: the premise — that now we can lump any old random Khador, Cygnar, and Crucible Guard model’s together in a list — is literally false.
Pick *one* of those factions when building a list with this theme, and use models from Infernals and that faction only. (Also, last I checked, the main tournament format disallows both lists from using the same theme...)
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Mar 7, 2019 14:05:29 GMT
I think it's a powerful list, for sure. Will be interesting to start reading reports.
To me the issue is more in the solos than in the theme, but I could well be wrong.
And can't Strakhov1 make jacks threat further, but with bulldoze/sustained attack/crit. stationary + murderous etc? So kinda similar to what I said in the CiD forums. This sort of stuff exists, just in a different way. So while the howlers can go really far and kill some infantry, Khador can already make heavies go further and just kill casters.
Again, could be too powerful but again, I think the Infernal solo are more to blame than the theme.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by auraco on Mar 7, 2019 14:12:05 GMT
I think it's a powerful list, for sure. Will be interesting to start reading reports. To me the issue is more in the solos than in the theme, but I could well be wrong. And can't Strakhov1 make jacks threat further, but with bulldoze/sustained attack/crit. stationary + murderous etc? So kinda similar to what I said in the CiD forums. This sort of stuff exists, just in a different way. So while the howlers can go really far and kill some infantry, Khador can already make heavies go further and just kill casters. Again, could be too powerful but again, I think the Infernal solo are more to blame than the theme. Cheers, Dave While I think the theme is too much, with being able to pick stuff that was designed to work in restricted theme like the koldun lord and Sorscha0 in a kind of irregular theme, I think you're right about the infernal solos, well at least Mordecai and Vaulin who are way too over the top with the insidious plans (rebuke that doesn't need to hit, can't be dispelled, and doesn't even need LOS to affect you, seriously?), long shadows and the Brother's keeper that simply affects all the army.
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 7, 2019 14:17:25 GMT
Folks: the premise — that now we can lump any old random Khador, Cygnar, and Crucible Guard model’s together in a list — is literally false. Pick *one* of those factions when building a list with this theme, and use models from Infernals and that faction only. (Also, last I checked, the main tournament format disallows both lists from using the same theme...) Only Champions disallows it, and going by DiscountGames it's the least common format out of Steamroller, Masters and Champions.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 7, 2019 18:37:42 GMT
I think it's a powerful list, for sure. Will be interesting to start reading reports. To me the issue is more in the solos than in the theme, but I could well be wrong. And can't Strakhov1 make jacks threat further, but with bulldoze/sustained attack/crit. stationary + murderous etc? So kinda similar to what I said in the CiD forums. This sort of stuff exists, just in a different way. So while the howlers can go really far and kill some infantry, Khador can already make heavies go further and just kill casters. Again, could be too powerful but again, I think the Infernal solo are more to blame than the theme. Cheers, Dave While I think the theme is too much, with being able to pick stuff that was designed to work in restricted theme like the koldun lord and Sorscha0 in a kind of irregular theme, I think you're right about the infernal solos, well at least Mordecai and Vaulin who are way too over the top with the insidious plans (rebuke that doesn't need to hit, can't be dispelled, and doesn't even need LOS to affect you, seriously?), long shadows and the Brother's keeper that simply affects all the army. There are 2 things going on.....
1) Mordicia and Horseguy are VERY powerful solos. Some of the best in the game. The Horseguy because a blanket -5 range on a durable model is just bonkers. Mordicia because as others have said the 10 inch range and the lack of requiring a hit roll for what ammounts to a very powerful debuff is just amazing.
1.5) There is an interesting split that they might want to spitball - FLOP the abilities. Fane night guy has those abilities but is a large base so could be shot off the table. -5 Range is powerful but now on a very squishy model that there are incentives to just get close to and shoot away so you can get to the squishy solos. I know I would spit ball some games in the play test to see what happens.
2) But there are also, perhaps moreso for us than Cygnar and CG, problems of taking models that were split by theme and then putting them together while still counting toward "free" stuff. A good one to think about is S0 and her avaiability in AC. (with Vlad2). You now can FURTHER extend stuff up the board. You are almost guaranteed to get the alpha with at least 2 superserum dudes. Given the synergies I don't think you would EVERY see an AC list that DIDN"T have her. And there isn't a huge opportunity cost (a bit but not huge) because with BC I am probably dropping Altanas. Add in stacking Assail and BC on something big and hitty (victor?) and we start to get into NPE realm. There is a reason she is in the 2 themes she is in.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Mar 7, 2019 18:44:46 GMT
2) But there are also, perhaps moreso for us than Cygnar and CG, problems of taking models that were split by theme and then putting them together while still counting toward "free" stuff. A good one to think about is S0 and her avaiability in AC. (with Vlad2). You now can FURTHER extend stuff up the board. You are almost guaranteed to get the alpha with at least 2 superserum dudes. We can currently get the alpha with two or more heavy warjacks fully loaded with focus, never mind a couple man o war. As I mentioned before, I think the solos are going to get toned down for sure. But people keep coming up with combos that we already have to prove the theme is broken. Cheers, Dave
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Mar 7, 2019 18:46:35 GMT
someone figured out a way to fire off 25 Dark Fires through 8 different Arc Nodes as an assassination run. So I went and found this list. Just want to point out that it's actually in the Dark Legacy theme list. Not Hearts of Darkness that everyone is complaining about. Cheers, Dave
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Post by sand20go on Mar 7, 2019 18:51:41 GMT
2) But there are also, perhaps moreso for us than Cygnar and CG, problems of taking models that were split by theme and then putting them together while still counting toward "free" stuff. A good one to think about is S0 and her avaiability in AC. (with Vlad2). You now can FURTHER extend stuff up the board. You are almost guaranteed to get the alpha with at least 2 superserum dudes. We can currently get the alpha with two or more heavy warjacks fully loaded with focus, never mind a couple man o war. As I mentioned before, I think the solos are going to get toned down for sure. But people keep coming up with combos that we already have to prove the theme is broken. Cheers, Dave uhhhh....nope
In Jaws (outside of Vlad1) you are threatening 12 or 13. That is by no means a guaranteed alpha - or at least not in MY meta.
But Vlad2 in this new theme with S0- EVEN BEFORE MORDICIA or vengenance, the crabguys get to SP 5+3+3+2+2=15 threat at POW 16, likely under Hand of Fate, with 2 initials, zerk, and arcane might to boost the second damage.
Again, if you could do the advanced move and even with the reduction in Free stuff are you telling me that S0 wouldn't be in EVERYONE of your AC lists? Cause she surely would be in mine.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 7, 2019 18:54:18 GMT
someone figured out a way to fire off 25 Dark Fires through 8 different Arc Nodes as an assassination run. So I went and found this list. Just want to point out that it's actually in the Dark Legacy theme list. Not Hearts of Darkness that everyone is complaining about. Cheers, Dave Check the Battle Report with Vlad1. That is a good illustration of what their shooting infantry can do under S&P and likely why Khador doesn't have RNG 10, pOW 12, CRA spam at 1.4 points a model. And I don't think it was even tuned, cause I would have brought 2 koldun lords and likely bombers to fully round out my "khador out of theme but in one" shooting list.
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Post by hocestbellum on Mar 7, 2019 19:18:05 GMT
someone figured out a way to fire off 25 Dark Fires through 8 different Arc Nodes as an assassination run. So I went and found this list. Just want to point out that it's actually in the Dark Legacy theme list. Not Hearts of Darkness that everyone is complaining about. Cheers, Dave I know. That's what I meant by 'Pure infernals army', but I couldn't remember the name of the theme
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Mar 7, 2019 19:32:38 GMT
We can currently get the alpha with two or more heavy warjacks fully loaded with focus, never mind a couple man o war. As I mentioned before, I think the solos are going to get toned down for sure. But people keep coming up with combos that we already have to prove the theme is broken. Cheers, Dave uhhhh....nope In Jaws (outside of Vlad1) you are threatening 12 or 13. That is by no means a guaranteed alpha - or at least not in MY meta. But Vlad2 in this new theme with S0- EVEN BEFORE MORDICIA or vengenance, the crabguys get to SP 5+3+3+2+2=15 threat at POW 16, likely under Hand of Fate, with 2 initials, zerk, and arcane might to boost the second damage.
Again, if you could do the advanced move and even with the reduction in Free stuff are you telling me that S0 wouldn't be in EVERYONE of your AC lists? Cause she surely would be in mine.
Was more thinking Strakhov1. Cheers, Dave
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Mar 7, 2019 19:37:55 GMT
So I went and found this list. Just want to point out that it's actually in the Dark Legacy theme list. Not Hearts of Darkness that everyone is complaining about. Cheers, Dave Check the Battle Report with Vlad1. That is a good illustration of what their shooting infantry can do under S&P and likely why Khador doesn't have RNG 10, pOW 12, CRA spam at 1.4 points a model. And I don't think it was even tuned, cause I would have brought 2 koldun lords and likely bombers to fully round out my "khador out of theme but in one" shooting list. I did see that report and I replied. We have range 8 POW12 CRA units at 1pt per model. Lose 2" of range but save 0.4pts per model. If the list had bombadiers in it there would only have been 1 rifle corps unit. So the output wouldn't change much necessarily. Koldun lords would be solid for sure, I agree the list should have had a couple to really push the shooting threat. But again, we can take Aiyana if we really want that +2 damage in WGK. Both are good, though slightly different. I feel changing the Infernal solos will go a long way towards sorting the list. Cheers, Dave
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