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Post by dogganmguest on Mar 29, 2019 23:24:26 GMT
And playing with people who act smug and superior for no good reason is like a masochistic sub-niche within a niche.
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Post by Charistoph on Mar 29, 2019 23:51:36 GMT
And playing with people who act smug and superior for no good reason is like a masochistic sub-niche within a niche. Indeed. Warhammer Fantasy used to be so technical and complicated in its ruleset (and still wasn't balanced worth a condemnation), and it died. Age of Sigmar swung the pendulum so far the opposite direction that it was barely 2 steps away from green army guys. The General's Handbook came out to give a semblance of a wargame, and AoS started picking up steam.
And in WHFB, 40K, and WMH, the cries of the smug carpenters who could sight a distance down to a millimeter were heard round the world when pre-measuring was taken from all of them.
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Post by tjhairball on Apr 1, 2019 19:34:49 GMT
As someone who just dusted off his Warmachine miniatures and started touching them up after they spent a lot of time in the closet, the fact that going to the (enormous! huge! has beer and coffee and snacks! has thirty or other forty people present playing games!) local game shop on Warmachine night gives me maybe a 50-50 shot of getting one game in makes me very skeptical about buying more things.
Seriously, it's not a hole in the wall game shop. It's an enormous store with more area devoted to table space than the total footprint of the game stores I occasionally played at in California, and they're doing well. But even with that excellent space and a thriving gaming community overall, there just aren't many Warmachine players showing up for casual pickup games.
I did make a couple of purchases right at the start of my dusting things back off, because I thought the local scene was more active than that, but if I want to actually play miniatures games with people, I should be buying something different.
Or you should have been playing. When players don't show up to play the game disappears. I showed up to play the game that night. Problem was, I was the only one who showed up to play, and this isn't a solo game. Wasn't the first time, either - as I said.
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Post by W0lfBane on Apr 1, 2019 19:54:05 GMT
Our warmachine group here is strong enough. We were in a hole previously but I think the consistent 2-3 people that kept showing up on warmachine night eventually worked out.
Also I think out LGS has a decent way to handle the fact that people buy stuff from elsewhere and play in their space. They charge a small fee for using their gaming space for the day
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Apr 2, 2019 2:41:37 GMT
Our Warmachine group here is strong enough. We were in a hole previously but I think the consistent 2-3 people that kept showing up on Warmachine night eventually worked out. Also, I think out LGS has a decent way to handle the fact that people buy stuff from elsewhere and play in their space. They charge a small fee for using their gaming space for the day I am really surprised that more game stores don't do this. I have heard of stores have a policy that if you buy something from them over X (whatever X.XX is, that changes from store to store) then you don't have to pay the fee to play on their tables, but if you do not then you have to pay a small fee to play on their tables. This feels like a very good policy to have, especially as tabletop miniatures typically don't keep the lights on or the place open, we are normally a very small amount of the actual income of a game store.
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Post by GumbaFish on Apr 2, 2019 14:09:15 GMT
Or you should have been playing. When players don't show up to play the game disappears. I showed up to play the game that night. Problem was, I was the only one who showed up to play, and this isn't a solo game. Wasn't the first time, either - as I said.
Full disclosure that I am I guess the community leader for said area. What you failed to mention is that just prior to this we ran a month long 10 man steamroller league and then another person followed this up by running a tournament. We are now running another 6 man league. I'm sorry you showed up once or twice and didn't get a game in, but posting your intention to come out to game nights (because even numbers of people don't always magically show up) or arranging games ahead of time on other nights are still totally viable options in the area if you are trying to play games.
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Post by michael on Apr 2, 2019 16:17:22 GMT
I showed up to play the game that night. Problem was, I was the only one who showed up to play, and this isn't a solo game. Wasn't the first time, either - as I said.
Full disclosure that I am I guess the community leader for said area. What you failed to mention is that just prior to this we ran a month long 10 man steamroller league and then another person followed this up by running a tournament. We are now running another 6 man league. I'm sorry you showed up once or twice and didn't get a game in, but posting your intention to come out to game nights (because even numbers of people don't always magically show up) or arranging games ahead of time on other nights are still totally viable options in the area if you are trying to play games. This is truth. Even in areas absolutely swimming with players, sometimes the stars align and everybody else goes to the same convention/wedding/sportsball game/whatever and nobody shows on game day. Communications technology is so ridiculously ubiquitous now that one has to be willfully trying to avoid communicating with other people. It takes so little effort to put out a post/group text/whatever saying “Anybody else gonna be at the shop?” that there’s no excuse.
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Post by michael on Apr 2, 2019 16:28:17 GMT
Our Warmachine group here is strong enough. We were in a hole previously but I think the consistent 2-3 people that kept showing up on Warmachine night eventually worked out. Also, I think out LGS has a decent way to handle the fact that people buy stuff from elsewhere and play in their space. They charge a small fee for using their gaming space for the day I am really surprised that more game stores don't do this. I have heard of stores have a policy that if you buy something from them over X (whatever X.XX is, that changes from store to store) then you don't have to pay the fee to play on their tables, but if you do not then you have to pay a small fee to play on their tables. This feels like a very good policy to have, especially as tabletop miniatures typically don't keep the lights on or the place open, we are normally a very small amount of the actual income of a game store. An infinitely more sensible policy (one supported by actual industry experience, not armchair quarterbacking) for a game trade retailer is to sell a diversified product mix and to foster community and partner with enthusiastic players to run events, while clearly setting realistic expectations that the people who play at your store need to (in general) buy at your store in order to be welcome, and uphold that policy fastidiously. A cover charge is, with very few exceptions, an act of desperation, not a sustainable business model for a game store.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 2, 2019 16:53:36 GMT
I am really surprised that more game stores don't do this. I have heard of stores have a policy that if you buy something from them over X (whatever X.XX is, that changes from store to store) then you don't have to pay the fee to play on their tables, but if you do not then you have to pay a small fee to play on their tables. This feels like a very good policy to have, especially as tabletop miniatures typically don't keep the lights on or the place open, we are normally a very small amount of the actual income of a game store. An infinitely more sensible policy (one supported by actual industry experience, not armchair quarterbacking) for a game trade retailer is to sell a diversified product mix and to foster community and partner with enthusiastic players to run events, while clearly setting realistic expectations that the people who play at your store need to (in general) buy at your store in order to be welcome, and uphold that policy fastidiously. A cover charge is, with very few exceptions, an act of desperation, not a sustainable business model for a game store. My gaming store must be one of the very few then
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Post by tjhairball on Apr 2, 2019 17:08:47 GMT
I showed up to play the game that night. Problem was, I was the only one who showed up to play, and this isn't a solo game. Wasn't the first time, either - as I said.
Full disclosure that I am I guess the community leader for said area. What you failed to mention is that just prior to this we ran a month long 10 man steamroller league and then another person followed this up by running a tournament. We are now running another 6 man league. I'm sorry you showed up once or twice and didn't get a game in, but posting your intention to come out to game nights (because even numbers of people don't always magically show up) or arranging games ahead of time on other nights are still totally viable options in the area if you are trying to play games. It wasn't just "once or twice." Even for that league? I signed up and tried, not because I had any expectation of doing well when I'm out of practice, but because I figured that might mean I'd actually be able to get in more games. I ended up only playing 2 out of 4 league games, because half of my opponents (A) didn't show up to the regular game night that week and then also (B) didn't have the same holes in their schedules that I did when I tried to schedule our game for a different time.
I've shown up on nights where some odd number of other people posted that they were coming, and then at least one changed their mind and decided not to show up without posting an update until I had already left (if at all).
From my perspective as someone who started trying to catch games there relatively recently and doesn't know the rest of you very well, it's been hard to actually catch WMH games. Not because you're bad people, or you're not playing any games, or you're not willing to play games with people you don't know, or that you're unfun players, but you're below the critical mass where people can just show up, hang out with the other folks, and probably get a game or two in. Hence why even the regulars usually don't show up at this point unless they expect to get in a game with a specific person.
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Post by GumbaFish on Apr 2, 2019 17:52:19 GMT
I hear you, but we also had 7 people there last week playing games which isn't too bad. I honestly think you caught the group at a slump for a couple of weeks but I can't make you change your mind. I've come out multiple times when nobody else has come out, opted to be odd man out so people can get games in who drove out or can game less frequently (including packing up my already deployed army), ran a 27 man tournament that I couldn't participate in, and am now running a league where I am sitting out to make even numbers so people don't have to have bye weeks in a couple week league. I also paid your spot in the league we ran and paid for the current league I am not even playing games in. My point isn't to belittle you being frustrated at missing a few games, but I think it is fair to put some perspective on what it means to be committed to sustaining or growing a meta. I have been at game night every week I can (barring late nights at work or personal commitments) for at least the past 2-3 years. While it can be frustrating not getting games in, and it is fine if you'd rather spend your time doing something else, if you aren't regularly coming out to games yourself I think it is unfair to criticize the community for also not showing up. I moved here from a region where there was literally a larger meta in the basement of one of our players than there is here so I get it, but I think if you want to continue playing games in the area you might have to adjust your expectations of what is realistic given the playerbase for the area.
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Post by W0lfBane on Apr 2, 2019 18:47:48 GMT
The reason more stores don't charge for their gaming space is because their gaming space is for lack of a better word shit. And most players would bawl at paying for gaming space unless it was nice. At my store the gaming space is actually its own separate store front and has a separate lease from the actual store. So the gaming space has to be able to pay its own rent and therefore requires its own income. It does help that it is really nice and that the employees sometimes forget to charge you. I don't at all feel like it was set up in a desperation move. Unless the desperation was the need for good gaming space. Having a good gaming space has really helped a lot of the communities flourish and given the store a place to run a shit ton more events. Maybe its not a good idea for all stores but I definitely would not dismiss a good gaming space as something to help increase the cash flow of a store.
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Post by elladan52 on Apr 2, 2019 19:27:42 GMT
Yeah I think it's the way of the future. It can be tough for game stores to compete with online retailers on model sales, but it's impossible for online retailers to compete with stores for physical play locations. Stores need to recognize where their true value is and use it in a way that works for them and the player.
My pet model involves paying either a monthly membership fee to get play space and a discount or a weekly charge that gets turned into store credit. But ideally it would be a monthly cost, like a gym membership. But it really needs to have perks and the play space has to be worth it.
The challenge with paying for tables and warmachine after work is it isn't reliable that I will get a good game. It doesn't feel good to pay 5 bucks, get assassinated top of 2 and then not have an opponent or whatever. That's why I prefer a monthly model with benefits (like a discount). That way I am always getting value and the bad feelings have time to diffuse.
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Post by marxlives on Apr 2, 2019 21:13:28 GMT
Our warmachine group here is strong enough. We were in a hole previously but I think the consistent 2-3 people that kept showing up on warmachine night eventually worked out. Also I think out LGS has a decent way to handle the fact that people buy stuff from elsewhere and play in their space. They charge a small fee for using their gaming space for the day They can also have a online store as well. You can still over discounts at 20 percent if you are an online seller but you need a store front. I think nowadays you need to have analytics, use automation to keep stock, and be an online seller as well as a store front.
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Post by marxlives on Apr 2, 2019 21:18:06 GMT
Honestly, I don't know how many people actually consider 40K a good game, but more of a "good enough" game. They enjoy the universe, models, and stories of games, but all too many will tell you how horrible the imbalance is and always has been. But then, GW has not really ever tried to make a seriously balanced game for competitive play (though some rumors about of some of the upcoming 'board games'), but enough of a game for the customer to justify to themselves that it is worth pushing multiples of Citadel models across the table in the semblance of combat. Miniature sales are their primary motivator, not games sales. Oddly enough, I think this is part of what makes 40K so successful. You buy loads of plastic and get drunk over them having a ridiculous game. It's also why their simplification from 7th Edition (along with killing the Choice Detachments and Formations) went over so well. Looking up complicated rules across 200 pages in several books while you can barely walk a curvy line doesn't usually work. While this probably doesn't apply to the whole base, something I've noticed in WMH a trend of more technical and precise play. Mk2 when i started everybody and crazy feats, models were all over the place, and there was goofy stuff like kovnik missiles, or heavies armlocking eachother vs krueger2 etc. And while unbalanced, for the casual crowd like me it was super fun, well sans cryx matches. Battles raged back and forth, models like mandrak pac manning was fun to watch, and matchups like nemo3 vs krueger2 were just funny. Now everything is so precise and measured with each faction locked into themes wacky fun stuff is harder to pull off and more matches just seem like grindfests. Or you look across the table and think welp, im f'd. Or due to how themes work, theres a bunch of x model so its bunch of x game mechanics. In a 2 list format thats fine, but for pickup or random games it means you have to plan ahead or have good friendly communication or theres a high chance of a quick battle, which is often invalidating your time. Now I've been dabbling on 40k a little recently (I know, boo) and in my meta most people have TAC lists. And since d6 is much more fickle than 2d6 games can swing widly.So chances are the game will last longer (especially vs orks) and the investment of time pays out. Even if the games less balanced the sillyness and swings are exciting. And the sheer range of options makes every match different. Maybe competitive gets narrow and Wmh level of spam, but theres no "gmage army, MoW army, slayer spam" of pretty much the same mechanic over and over in the day to day pickup games. Yeah they are balanced better but us relative casuals want excitement and options. PP oblivion should be better and newer themes are better and more open, but until then I think the very mechanical and precise nature is kinda turning off the casual and semi comp players. Just my thoughts. True, think there are ways to simplify the game while keeping it competitive. Keeping arcs and templates is a big deal. But the math involved can be smoothed out, the old d20 system it was based on is showing its age. The best one I can think of without going to 40k's Mathammer style of everything can hurt everything, I think FFG attack dice and defense dice with modifiers.
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