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Post by michael on Mar 27, 2019 13:43:19 GMT
I’m referencing the 2010-2012/2013 era. Guildball was not around then.
GW bought themselves to their knees more than anything, PP just provided lifeboats for some of the people jumping ship. Six of one, half dozen of another.
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shiver
Junior Strategist
Posts: 150
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Post by shiver on Mar 28, 2019 1:07:41 GMT
GW bought themselves to their knees more than anything, PP just provided lifeboats for some of the people jumping ship. Six of one, half dozen of another. Not even close to the same thing, and again, are you supplanting your opinion as fact? We wouldn't want to do that. Can you maybe use that golden key of yours at PPHQ to clarify this?
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Post by challenger on Mar 28, 2019 10:06:22 GMT
Ahh if only pp figured out how to simplify rules like how do you make a model harder to shoot than normal without adding 10 new rules.
If only I knew another game with that exact problem that solved it with one rule called Camoflauge that exists on a scale from limited camo to mimetism to TO camo all using essentially the same rule just with minor benefits put on vastly decreasing the complexity in "my model is harder to shoot"
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Mar 28, 2019 10:14:01 GMT
Ahh if only pp figured out how to simplify rules like how do you make a model harder to shoot than normal without adding 10 new rules. If only I knew another game with that exact problem that solved it with one rule called Camoflauge that exists on a scale from limited camo to mimetism to TO camo all using essentially the same rule just with minor benefits put on vastly decreasing the complexity in "my model is harder to shoot"
Yeah love me some infinity :-) I play it too, and like it. It has it share of rules blout though. And several versions of simillar rules. I wouldnt say infinity is a good inspiration rulewise. When it comes to metal models, starter box, 2-player boxes and campaign books, however, PP has something to lears from a small spanish company.
I think the games which best have "simplified" the rules, but at the same time keept a tactical depth is guild ball and xwing.
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Post by squighopper on Mar 28, 2019 14:02:34 GMT
It's a bit baffling from a design perspective that they started doing the clean up on MK3 and then suddenly gave up. A good example are abilities with an X factor, like reposition (X) that can be repo(3) or (5). Same with the ranges on the weapons. Why they didn't do it for all abilities. We could have carapace(4) and carapace(2) for instance... It would be easier to balance.
True sight and Eyeless sight could be joined in a single hability.
Do we really need a bazilon of game effects that happen with a hth attack and move stuff? We got sidestep, beat back, ram, smite, overtake, you name it...
And this were all the most obvious things I remembered while writing this. I'm sure there are a ton of effects out there that can simply be cut or simplified without reducing the tactical depth of the game unless in some circumstantial event.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 28, 2019 14:16:28 GMT
It's a bit baffling from a design perspective that they started doing the clean up on MK3 and then suddenly gave up. A good example are abilities with an X factor, like reposition (X) that can be repo(3) or (5). Same with the ranges on the weapons. Why they didn't do it for all abilities. We could have carapace(4) and carapace(2) for instance... It would be easier to balance. True sight and Eyeless sight could be joined in a single hability. Do we really need a bazilon of game effects that happen with a hth attack and move stuff? We got sidestep, beat back, ram, smite, overtake, you name it... And this were all the most obvious things I remembered while writing this. I'm sure there are a ton of effects out there that can simply be cut or simplified without reducing the tactical depth of the game unless in some circumstantial event. One that personally irks me: Gerlak used to have Killing Spree (Berserk + Overtake). They changed it to Berserk + Overtake in MK3, presumably because he grants the former to Bloodgorgers and they didn't want to write the same rule twice. That's fair, there's no reason that should be a single rule anyway. Yet... Killing Spree is still actually a thing (Finn, Blood Weaver Night Witch, a.o.)
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Post by marxlives on Mar 28, 2019 14:30:17 GMT
Not worried at all really. I wouldn't be surprised if Warmachine and Hordes were right behind Legion. We all know PP has done ALOT of course correcting with the CID (basically the Mk.2 of open beta they should have stuck with going into Mk.3 instead of abandoning), putting their site under construction for updating, figuring out how to move their lore into books effectively (Oblivion is basically the Battletech style of managing a system that has a huge catalog, and it works) so I wouldn't be surprised to see some more course correction over the next year with maybe a Mk3 Prime Remix release a year or two later to bump them back up.
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Post by marxlives on Mar 28, 2019 14:31:36 GMT
... The only thing i can see is new games ala riotquest or warmachine 4 ed being so good and in high demand that the store owner just have to commit to ordering more than the minimum. ... I wouldn’t hold your breath for “4th edition” just yet. Despite the Internet echo chamber and perpetual doom cycle, this edition is actually pretty great and the rules set is incredibly solid. True, this isn't something I will fully get. Core rules rise, Mk.3 is not a radical departure from Mk.2.
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Post by marxlives on Mar 28, 2019 14:34:41 GMT
Perhaps one of the most frustrating points that are brought up by the "everything is perfect" crowd is that "if you're having fun, what does it matter". Well, it DOES matter, it matters a lot, because people don't want to invest in a game they have long term fears about its viability. WM/H is evaporating from store shelves, has a dwindling player base (except for your area, I know), and has had a lot of upheavals recently, with the warehouse sales, sr staff leaving en masse, NQ prime, the need to kickstart a product, I mean, there is a lot to be concerned about (and I haven't listed all of the concerns) and when we see that its no longer even one of the top 5 after a decade in that stack rank, that's a lot to think about. The cost of a WMH list pair to play with your buddies or at a local event is REALLY high now. Like, upwards of 8 or 9 bills. If I had any concerns I would not want to spend that kind of cash on that game. So, yes, the long term viability matters to a game. Yes, stack ranks will change over time, but there are just too many things going wrong right now to really just sweep under the rug. Sure, they likely don't mean anything significant long term, and when MKIV launches, it'll likely put them above AoS for a bit, and they will go back and forth, but until then, MKIII has a lot of problems from a public perception concept and PP needs to start working to turn that around for MKIV. As someone who just dusted off his Warmachine miniatures and started touching them up after they spent a lot of time in the closet, the fact that going to the (enormous! huge! has beer and coffee and snacks! has thirty or other forty people present playing games!) local game shop on Warmachine night gives me maybe a 50-50 shot of getting one game in makes me very skeptical about buying more things.
Seriously, it's not a hole in the wall game shop. It's an enormous store with more area devoted to table space than the total footprint of the game stores I occasionally played at in California, and they're doing well. But even with that excellent space and a thriving gaming community overall, there just aren't many Warmachine players showing up for casual pickup games.
I did make a couple of purchases right at the start of my dusting things back off, because I thought the local scene was more active than that, but if I want to actually play miniatures games with people, I should be buying something different.
Or you should have been playing. When players don't show up to play the game disappears.
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Post by marxlives on Mar 28, 2019 14:36:16 GMT
What is it about Malifaux that makes it still attractive to sellers and the community that WM/H has lost?
Malifaux is a good game.
They are both good games. Malifaux isn't jamming in my neck of woods either. Unless you play 40k prepare to participate or build a community.
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Post by marxlives on Mar 28, 2019 14:46:23 GMT
I'm trying my best not to be a condescending jerk, but saying stuff like this makes it very hard.
Maybe you have zero control over it? Maybe I would be condescending, no matter what you'd say.. geez..
Or maybe you are misunderstanding what I was saying. I was using a shorthand there, and will admit that much is my fault. What I meant when I said "Steamrollers" there are those local players who will only play 75 point Steamroller scenarios, even in casual play, and refuse to consider playing anything else. Mayhaps I should have called them "Steamrollerers" or "Steamrolling players" for better clarity. The attitude fits the basic name so well it was hard not to keep using it. True, much of sales is how customers "feel" about a product. Which is why GW still doesn't have official forums. Toxic posts can do a lot of damage to how people "feel" about a product and damage sales. BoLS has articles and players at my store have stories about how unbalanced 8th 40k is or how AoS lacks tactical choices, GW doesn't run official tournaments, have a PG program or official forums but it still sells. Why? Because their customers feel it is a good game. And at the end of the day it tops Warmachine, Malifaux (or The Otherside), and Infinity in sales. When players figure out that showing up and playing games is what makes a game stay around. Not rankings or SKUs, PP will make that chart again. If you get a chance, check out the online community for Battletech. Has a huge SKU and was hampered by legal issues and they are still going strong. Is it ever going to be a 40k killer? No but does every game need to be a 40k, Halo, WoW killer to be profitable and worth playing?
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Post by sand20go on Mar 28, 2019 20:13:03 GMT
Or maybe you are misunderstanding what I was saying. I was using a shorthand there, and will admit that much is my fault. What I meant when I said "Steamrollers" there are those local players who will only play 75 point Steamroller scenarios, even in casual play, and refuse to consider playing anything else. Mayhaps I should have called them "Steamrollerers" or "Steamrolling players" for better clarity. The attitude fits the basic name so well it was hard not to keep using it. True, much of sales is how customers "feel" about a product. Which is why GW still doesn't have official forums. Toxic posts can do a lot of damage to how people "feel" about a product and damage sales. BoLS has articles and players at my store have stories about how unbalanced 8th 40k is or how AoS lacks tactical choices, GW doesn't run official tournaments, have a PG program or official forums but it still sells. Why? Because their customers feel it is a good game. And at the end of the day it tops Warmachine, Malifaux (or The Otherside), and Infinity in sales. When players figure out that showing up and playing games is what makes a game stay around. Not rankings or SKUs, PP will make that chart again. If you get a chance, check out the online community for Battletech. Has a huge SKU and was hampered by legal issues and they are still going strong. Is it ever going to be a 40k killer? No but does every game need to be a 40k, Halo, WoW killer to be profitable and worth playing? "GW doesn't run official tournaments, have a PG program or official forums but it still sells. Why? Because their customers feel it is a good game."
I just want to make an important correction. GW finds value (or they would shut them down) in their "retailer in a box" format that creates "cheap" retail outlets as a place to get exposed to the game. In addition, a LGS owner recently walked me through very good inventory incentive programs offered by GW that make it very attractive to stock a huge amount of product (which is in boxes so takes up more shelf space but LOOKS better than blisters.
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Post by Charistoph on Mar 29, 2019 0:00:43 GMT
True, much of sales is how customers "feel" about a product. Which is why GW still doesn't have official forums. Toxic posts can do a lot of damage to how people "feel" about a product and damage sales. BoLS has articles and players at my store have stories about how unbalanced 8th 40k is or how AoS lacks tactical choices, GW doesn't run official tournaments, have a PG program or official forums but it still sells. Why? Because their customers feel it is a good game. And at the end of the day it tops Warmachine, Malifaux (or The Otherside), and Infinity in sales. When players figure out that showing up and playing games is what makes a game stay around. Not rankings or SKUs, PP will make that chart again. If you get a chance, check out the online community for Battletech. Has a huge SKU and was hampered by legal issues and they are still going strong. Is it ever going to be a 40k killer? No but does every game need to be a 40k, Halo, WoW killer to be profitable and worth playing? Honestly, I don't know how many people actually consider 40K a good game, but more of a "good enough" game. They enjoy the universe, models, and stories of games, but all too many will tell you how horrible the imbalance is and always has been. But then, GW has not really ever tried to make a seriously balanced game for competitive play (though some rumors about of some of the upcoming 'board games'), but enough of a game for the customer to justify to themselves that it is worth pushing multiples of Citadel models across the table in the semblance of combat. Miniature sales are their primary motivator, not games sales. Oddly enough, I think this is part of what makes 40K so successful. You buy loads of plastic and get drunk over them having a ridiculous game. It's also why their simplification from 7th Edition (along with killing the Choice Detachments and Formations) went over so well. Looking up complicated rules across 200 pages in several books while you can barely walk a curvy line doesn't usually work.
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Post by autocorrecthaslimits on Mar 29, 2019 19:31:46 GMT
True, much of sales is how customers "feel" about a product. Which is why GW still doesn't have official forums. Toxic posts can do a lot of damage to how people "feel" about a product and damage sales. BoLS has articles and players at my store have stories about how unbalanced 8th 40k is or how AoS lacks tactical choices, GW doesn't run official tournaments, have a PG program or official forums but it still sells. Why? Because their customers feel it is a good game. And at the end of the day it tops Warmachine, Malifaux (or The Otherside), and Infinity in sales. When players figure out that showing up and playing games is what makes a game stay around. Not rankings or SKUs, PP will make that chart again. If you get a chance, check out the online community for Battletech. Has a huge SKU and was hampered by legal issues and they are still going strong. Is it ever going to be a 40k killer? No but does every game need to be a 40k, Halo, WoW killer to be profitable and worth playing? Honestly, I don't know how many people actually consider 40K a good game, but more of a "good enough" game. They enjoy the universe, models, and stories of games, but all too many will tell you how horrible the imbalance is and always has been. But then, GW has not really ever tried to make a seriously balanced game for competitive play (though some rumors about of some of the upcoming 'board games'), but enough of a game for the customer to justify to themselves that it is worth pushing multiples of Citadel models across the table in the semblance of combat. Miniature sales are their primary motivator, not games sales. Oddly enough, I think this is part of what makes 40K so successful. You buy loads of plastic and get drunk over them having a ridiculous game. It's also why their simplification from 7th Edition (along with killing the Choice Detachments and Formations) went over so well. Looking up complicated rules across 200 pages in several books while you can barely walk a curvy line doesn't usually work. While this probably doesn't apply to the whole base, something I've noticed in WMH a trend of more technical and precise play. Mk2 when i started everybody and crazy feats, models were all over the place, and there was goofy stuff like kovnik missiles, or heavies armlocking eachother vs krueger2 etc. And while unbalanced, for the casual crowd like me it was super fun, well sans cryx matches. Battles raged back and forth, models like mandrak pac manning was fun to watch, and matchups like nemo3 vs krueger2 were just funny. Now everything is so precise and measured with each faction locked into themes wacky fun stuff is harder to pull off and more matches just seem like grindfests. Or you look across the table and think welp, im f'd. Or due to how themes work, theres a bunch of x model so its bunch of x game mechanics. In a 2 list format thats fine, but for pickup or random games it means you have to plan ahead or have good friendly communication or theres a high chance of a quick battle, which is often invalidating your time. Now I've been dabbling on 40k a little recently (I know, boo) and in my meta most people have TAC lists. And since d6 is much more fickle than 2d6 games can swing widly.So chances are the game will last longer (especially vs orks) and the investment of time pays out. Even if the games less balanced the sillyness and swings are exciting. And the sheer range of options makes every match different. Maybe competitive gets narrow and Wmh level of spam, but theres no "gmage army, MoW army, slayer spam" of pretty much the same mechanic over and over in the day to day pickup games. Yeah they are balanced better but us relative casuals want excitement and options. PP oblivion should be better and newer themes are better and more open, but until then I think the very mechanical and precise nature is kinda turning off the casual and semi comp players. Just my thoughts.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Mar 29, 2019 22:03:46 GMT
A miniature game is not only balanced rules, but also fluff, great looking models and tables. What people view as a good game depends on what they prefere. Saying that 40k is not a great game is rather strange when tons of more people play it than wmh, and seem to have fun. Its smells of the the elite attitude which some wmh metas are known for.
The wmh tournaments local and biggest conventions have extreme low attendens compareded to 40k. So Its clear what the crowds prefere as a good game.
And that is coming from someone who left 40k for wmh.
I think that ignorence and attitude is connected to why recruting to wmh is difficult. Playing with toy soldiers is a niche hobby. Playing with non painted miniatures on an ugly table with 2D terrain with complex rules is niche of niche. 🙂
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