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Post by sand20go on Mar 12, 2019 13:31:03 GMT
How do you feel Sorscha1 does stuff better than Zerkova1? Wouldn't the cloud wall help a lot with some of those bad matchups? I'm intrigued by this thread but having a WoW list that should handle infantry very good and not be able to play against SotN is a problem IMO. Also, how does it work into Tharns you feel? You might hit one unit of ravagers with the feat but the other unit should be able to do a lot, no? There are a couple of key differences, Nothing that makes Z1 bad, she is just on a similar level as Vlad 1 play style. Anti cloud/concealment tech is out there, and it's getting harder to rely on, most factions have something. Zerkova's feat is also only one turn out of the game, while good, can be played around. Sorscha on the other hand does good work herself while supporting doomies quite well. Freezing grip is consistently good against 90% of the infantry out there. With a mass of medium base infantry, that's usually 1/3 of an enemies units not doing anything for as long as Sorscha pleases. Fog of war is sometimes helpful, sometimes really pointless, but it's there. Sorscha herself is pretty resilient to assassination, she hangs far back with 18-22 defense. She also has this great utility feat, save for the end game assassination or use it on as much of an army as possible for a nice time walk. With large units, they are either too far back to get clipped (and also aren't relevant) or they get frozen and jam everyone behind them. I havent played Iona/tharn, but I see two problems and the rest is gravy. The blood pack has hunter, so they're going to snipe out all the doomies they can, but with rng 12 im hoping sorscha will have the chance to freeze them. Lord of the feast will slaughter a lot of doomies. A puppet mastered, 2 focus, guidanced destroyer is one of our highest chances to kill him id say. Ravagers also only threat 11" where our doomies threat 13" and Ionas only defensive tech is high def/stealth. SoTN is as you say, a pretty hard counter. But so is WoD/rasheth into zerkova1. It really depends on your meta, and that's why we have pairings. What Johhny said. I played perhaps 10-12 games with Zerkova1 in WoW. I found that there is a LOT of stuff in at least my meta that is fully capable of walking 6 to 8 inches and threatening 10. Yes. You HAVE watcher and that can spoil a lot of that but you are fishing for criticals or hoping that her -2 to attack saves her. Otherwise, your opponent simply walks up and hits her. Moreover, if you are using watcher on say 13 points of juggernaught that is 13 points which isn't doing that much work, which can not be extended past 8 inch threat. Also as above people are pretty much bringing as a standard package a way of giving out eyeless sight. The combination is that it is hard to play her as forward as you would like to really leverage that feat. And while hex blast is good for helping with def buffs you still have "just" mat 7 doomies swining on def 14 things.....reducing the impact of Zerk. I think in some ways this hinges on your meta and your second list - which needs to answer the question of multi-round shooting. And that is another strike against Zerkova - you were going to bring armor to deal with gun lines ANYWAY because neither Z1 or S1 is saving you from say double CGI with Gearheart. S1 brings you greater coverage than the overlap you will have with Z1. (though I want to try her in AC - double democorp with her spray sounds "fun"). Maybe right after KingdomCon.....
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Post by P'tit Nico on Mar 12, 2019 15:25:47 GMT
You HAVE watcher and that can spoil a lot of that but you are fishing for criticals or hoping that her -2 to attack saves her (though I want to try her in AC - double democorp with her spray sounds "fun") So... fishing for criticals is not reliable but you want to try fishing for criticals with her spray and Demo Corps?
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 12, 2019 15:34:51 GMT
Maybe puppet master and boosted is a better fishing technique?
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Post by sand20go on Mar 12, 2019 16:29:02 GMT
You HAVE watcher and that can spoil a lot of that but you are fishing for criticals or hoping that her -2 to attack saves her (though I want to try her in AC - double democorp with her spray sounds "fun") So... fishing for criticals is not reliable but you want to try fishing for criticals with her spray and Demo Corps? The critical on the spray is fishing but more akin to "That is a nice big buff" rather than "I need a critical or I will lose the game. Moreover, Puppet Strings, if I recall, does NOT last a full round and thus you can't reroll the Watcher attack if you miss. Finally, your democorp is doing work even if it never comes up. Your juggernaught is literally out of the fight until Round 3 (or often 4) because he has to be babbysitting Zerkova if she wants to get as far up the field as she needs to be to get value out of her feat (aka pushing deep enough to catch officers and solos so you really timewalk their army).
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Post by P'tit Nico on Mar 12, 2019 16:50:38 GMT
So... fishing for criticals is not reliable but you want to try fishing for criticals with her spray and Demo Corps? The critical on the spray is fishing but more akin to "That is a nice big buff" rather than "I need a critical or I will lose the game. Moreover, Puppet Strings, if I recall, does NOT last a full round and thus you can't reroll the Watcher attack if you miss. Finally, your democorp is doing work even if it never comes up. Your juggernaught is literally out of the fight until Round 3 (or often 4) because he has to be babbysitting Zerkova if she wants to get as far up the field as she needs to be to get value out of her feat (aka pushing deep enough to catch officers and solos so you really timewalk their army). Puppet Master can be cast on an enemy model/unit, so it does last a round. Depending on what is actually threatening Lady Z, a Watcher Juggernaut attack is often enough to scare your opponent. Sometimes, your opponent will not risk it if it means he loses the game if you land a critical. I agree that a critical Freeze from Frost Hammer is a nice big buff, but you shouldn't rely on it. Even with Puppet Master, the maximum critical chance (when you need anything but snake eyes to hit) is only 44%.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 12, 2019 21:49:04 GMT
You HAVE watcher and that can spoil a lot of that but you are fishing for criticals or hoping that her -2 to attack saves her (though I want to try her in AC - double democorp with her spray sounds "fun") So... fishing for criticals is not reliable but you want to try fishing for criticals with her spray and Demo Corps? I think he's saying that fishing for a crit to save your warcaster from impending death is not fun. That's less like fishing and more like panicking.
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Mar 13, 2019 0:05:28 GMT
I had completely missed the spell Freezing Grip so now I realize what you guys are talking about. Will definitely give her a try once my 30 female doom reavers arrive
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 13, 2019 3:17:19 GMT
I had completely missed the spell Freezing Grip so now I realize what you guys are talking about. Will definitely give her a try once my 30 female doom reavers arrive it's a hell of a drug! My local group still get infuriated by it (and they should). Sorscha hides behind my lines only to pop out and freeze 5-10 dudes indefinitely. It's also really fun to freeze a unit, send a doomy in and get 5 kills without having to roll dice.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 13, 2019 4:18:07 GMT
I had completely missed the spell Freezing Grip so now I realize what you guys are talking about. Will definitely give her a try once my 30 female doom reavers arrive it's a hell of a drug! My local group still get infuriated by it (and they should). Sorscha hides behind my lines only to pop out and freeze 5-10 dudes indefinitely. It's also really fun to freeze a unit, send a doomy in and get 5 kills without having to roll dice. Nothing like getting to say "OK. Those all die. So do those...and those do as well." Freezing grip may be one of the best spells in the ENTIRE game. The great crime against Khador is that S2 lost it cause if she had that AND her feat in the current meta she would be the best caster in the entire f'ing game. The only other crime of equal note is taht we do not have great access to disruption because, again, there is nothing like freezing jacks only to disrupt them.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 13, 2019 8:43:14 GMT
I think I had the most success in MkII with Sorscha 2, I was quite sad when I saw she lost Freezing Grip. I really wish they would at least give her something useful to make up for it because right now she feels like a shadow of her former self.
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Post by borderprince on Mar 13, 2019 9:47:35 GMT
The great crime against Khador is that S2 lost it cause if she had that AND her feat in the current meta she would be the best caster in the entire f'ing game. I think Sorscha2 becoming the best caster in the game is probably quite a good reason to have deprived her of Freezing Grip. Much as I like Khador, game balance is important.
I'd agree with Soul Samurai that she does need something though. A Sorscha without a spell to cause Stationary just doesn't feel right. I'd take Winter's Wrath from Sorscha3 in exchange for Razor Wind. Sorscha2 was meant to be the "I'm angry and dark (without my Vlad)" Sorscha, so damage + stationary seems appropriate for her.
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 13, 2019 12:20:19 GMT
it's a hell of a drug! My local group still get infuriated by it (and they should). Sorscha hides behind my lines only to pop out and freeze 5-10 dudes indefinitely. It's also really fun to freeze a unit, send a doomy in and get 5 kills without having to roll dice. Nothing like getting to say "OK. Those all die. So do those...and those do as well." Freezing grip may be one of the best spells in the ENTIRE game. The great crime against Khador is that S2 lost it cause if she had that AND her feat in the current meta she would be the best caster in the entire f'ing game. The only other crime of equal note is taht we do not have great access to disruption because, again, there is nothing like freezing jacks only to disrupt them. Mmm, i really like the disrupt/stationary tech. Previously wasnt too viable as Sorscha1 felt most at home in WGK to me. Im contemplating trying eiryss1 over fenris right now.
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Post by auraco on Mar 13, 2019 12:28:59 GMT
Not sure Sorscha2 would be the best caster in the entire game if she had freezing grip back, but it would certainly help her, at the moment she is certainly lackluster, her feat changing from a pulse to an aura is also something that hurt her a lot, that and not having that many jack pts when compared to our other casters.
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Post by Havock on Mar 14, 2019 0:46:44 GMT
They just need to up her survivability she simply can't survive at the distance she needs to be.
Give her Bullet Dodger and she'd have a place, IF is nice but it doesn't really keep her alive. Also give her back her old bond :v
Or maybe some sort of righteous vengeance so she can punish you killing her dudes.
All in all, she got hit with the nerf bat too hard.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 14, 2019 3:04:41 GMT
It's come up before, but if Shatterstorm gave attacks magical damage (instead of just giving the AOE magical damage) she'd be a bit more of an "answers" caster.
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