Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Mar 7, 2019 21:24:45 GMT
Doomies aren't that vulnerable to sprays because they have no need to stay in b2b for bonuses. Spray or blast that kills only 1 model is a good trade for doomies. I would suggest that you try to position your Doom Reavers in such a way that they are both relevant, and don't allow a Speed 6 to 8 Battle Engine with 2 Spray10's and a Spray8, and an AOE4", to get attack rolls on at least 6 of them in an activation. Literally position two armies on the table and try it. It's not easy to do in a real game against a determined opponent. If you are still struggling with this concept, remember that your opponent is not limited to selecting a Doom Reaver as the target for his sprays. He can select any of your models (which are otherwise valid targets). He can also select any of his own models. If you're wondering whether I would run one of my own models in order to get a sweet spray target to catch 4 or 5 Doomer Reavers, the answer is yes, yes I would (and do); and it is totally worth it.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 7, 2019 21:48:00 GMT
In general, however, Railless Interceptors are not a pleasant sight for Doom Reavers. My point would primarily be that, whether there is worse on the table is context dependent, and doesn't change the fact that the Railless is generally bad for Doom Reavers.This (and not much more). Spray 10 is just bad for Wolves. Spray 8 is manageable because of Koldun Lord. So, in the mirror match, the WGI could be somewhat constrained (you would need to get him with rockets). I think that if you see Railless (or, PERHAPS, the Hydra) you reach for your other list. I say perhaps on the Hydra because that is a LOT of points to be dumping and you may be able to go get it. I need to think more about the Fulcrum. Lightening and The Spray are pretty scary and will get a lot of work done. But at ARM 19 and with just 28 boxes I am pretty sure you can absorb the damage and remove at a decent rate of exchange. Plus it is 19 points.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 10, 2019 15:14:51 GMT
first loss with the list (but I shouldn't have lost) into Xerxis1 and a Beast Brick with three bugs. Main issue was brain farting on BrittleFrost (important to remember that I got it), forgetting the no healing bubble (great against Frozen beasts) and overestimateing the work that could be Doomreavers into ARM 21 things. However, one of those games where "mistakes where made" as my opponent didn't remember eyeless sight on a stick (three of them!) and I gave a really dumb countercharge which kept me from being able to eat a bug with Beast.
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 10, 2019 17:21:23 GMT
first loss with the list (but I shouldn't have lost) into Xerxis1 and a Beast Brick with three bugs. Main issue was brain farting on BrittleFrost (important to remember that I got it), forgetting the no healing bubble (great against Frozen beasts) and overestimateing the work that could be Doomreavers into ARM 21 things. However, one of those games where "mistakes where made" as my opponent didn't remember eyeless sight on a stick (three of them!) and I gave a really dumb countercharge which kept me from being able to eat a bug with Beast. What was your list? Big meaty bricks is definitely interesting to play into, but i think it's that's an important list that WoW should be able to be dropped into. Pow 12 is almost not enough for arm 21, brittle frost is key there. Timing Sorscha1's feat into a brick is also more important that normal. You wont get that sweet caster killer on someone like xerxis/beast spam most of the time. You'll have to hit as many beasts as possible and make sure you hit all the support.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 10, 2019 20:11:47 GMT
first loss with the list (but I shouldn't have lost) into Xerxis1 and a Beast Brick with three bugs. Main issue was brain farting on BrittleFrost (important to remember that I got it), forgetting the no healing bubble (great against Frozen beasts) and overestimateing the work that could be Doomreavers into ARM 21 things. However, one of those games where "mistakes where made" as my opponent didn't remember eyeless sight on a stick (three of them!) and I gave a really dumb countercharge which kept me from being able to eat a bug with Beast. What was your list? Big meaty bricks is definitely interesting to play into, but i think it's that's an important list that WoW should be able to be dropped into. Pow 12 is almost not enough for arm 21, brittle frost is key there. Timing Sorscha1's feat into a brick is also more important that normal. You wont get that sweet caster killer on someone like xerxis/beast spam most of the time. You'll have to hit as many beasts as possible and make sure you hit all the support Here is the list conflictchamber.com/?c3201b_-0K47kVnmnjhF8h8hnf89nf89nfnfnfnnnnKhador Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Wolves of Winter [Sorscha 1] Kommander Sorscha [+29] - Beast 09 [18] - Ruin [17] - Greylord Adjunct [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [4] Koldun Lord [4] Koldun Lord [4] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] - Greylord Escort [3] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Doom Reaver Swordsmen [10] Greylord Ternion [0(7)] Greylord Ternion [0(7)] There is still testing to do. 1) I HAVE to just focus on some games where I just focus on practicing BrittleFrost so i remember it and i remember that it causes damage ;-) We just have so rarely had arm debuffs....it is easy to forget it - especially when you have sweet puppet master or guidance on a stick. 2) Some debate about double destroyers rather than the 2 beat sticks. I think arguments either way. I want to continue to test to figure out and see which I like (or don't like) more.
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 11, 2019 2:38:09 GMT
How have you been liking ruin? Not sure i favor him too much without butcher tagging along. Arcane vortex is nice, but he's hard to get souls with especially with a huge doomy screen. Maybe im wrong and he manages to get work out of arcane vortex and dispel, but he's a bit less effective than a juggernaut for a beater.
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Post by borderprince on Mar 11, 2019 5:36:14 GMT
How have you been liking ruin? Not sure i favor him too much without butcher tagging along. Arcane vortex is nice, but he's hard to get souls with especially with a huge doomy screen. Maybe im wrong and he manages to get work out of arcane vortex and dispel, but he's a bit less effective than a juggernaut for a beater. Personal thoughts from a couple of games with Ruin in Wolves without Butcher:
(1) Extra 1" of threat range over a Juggernaut is important. Wolves is a fast list generally, so the extra threat range can make a very big difference on the table;
(2) Dispel is one of those "really miss it if you need it" rules. Especially with a caster like Sorscha1, where we need Brittle Frost to more or less get the list to a level of hitting power I'd describe as "acceptable". Getting rid of ARM buffs can be essential to make sure the hitting power of the list isn't reduced too low;
(3) Sacred Ward is handy in some of the match-ups I would want to run Jaws into (Cryx, most obviously) - it can make the difference between losing a primary beater before it does anything or not.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 11, 2019 14:34:03 GMT
So far I haven't really noticed a big difference between Ruin and the hypothetical of the jugger. Perhaps a game where I charged the objective for the win. Probably worth testing though I think that if i downgrade from Ruin it would be to a destroyer so I am able to do some spot removal. Not sure what I would do with the additional 3 points - I do not own a third escort and probably not buying one just that tweak....I have NOT found having a third escort would have made much of a difference.
Ruin also helps into wormwood and Krugar 2 - matches I expect to get with this set up.
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Post by auraco on Mar 11, 2019 15:55:55 GMT
So far I haven't really noticed a big difference between Ruin and the hypothetical of the jugger. Perhaps a game where I charged the objective for the win. Probably worth testing though I think that if i downgrade from Ruin it would be to a destroyer so I am able to do some spot removal. Not sure what I would do with the additional 3 points - I do not own a third escort and probably not buying one just that tweak....I have NOT found having a third escort would have made much of a difference. Ruin also helps into wormwood and Krugar 2 - matches I expect to get with this set up. Yeah Ruin is big against circle, assuming the other guy doesn't drop Tharn because of Sorscha1.
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 11, 2019 16:26:30 GMT
So the variation i've played with success so far swaps ruin for destroyer, and takes out a unit of greylord ternions for fenris. Havent found a lack of clouds, seeing as on turn 1 and 2 if needed you have access to 5 clouds. The spot removal is iffy, but guidance, empower and puppet master definitely make it better.
I do like the idea of two beaters though. Doomies still die relatively fast, even if they get work done. Having a nice solid second wave of beaters could be good. Then again destroyer isnt too shabby with brittle frost and BC.
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Post by sand20go on Mar 11, 2019 17:12:40 GMT
So the variation i've played with success so far swaps ruin for destroyer, and takes out a unit of greylord ternions for fenris. Havent found a lack of clouds, seeing as on turn 1 and 2 if needed you have access to 5 clouds. The spot removal is iffy, but guidance, empower and puppet master definitely make it better. I do like the idea of two beaters though. Doomies still die relatively fast, even if they get work done. Having a nice solid second wave of beaters could be good. Then again destroyer isnt too shabby with brittle frost and BC. I like fenris (a lot) but haven't found a way to squeeze him in. I am finding at this point that the clouds are less of an issue compared to the joy of icecages post-feat (or in a different place). So, for example, playing into Xerxis1 it was is a good counterplay against feat (and battle charged) to have some ternions out there throwing around ice cages to stationary the beasts. Allows Sorscha to go get another one frozen (FG) or to do other things.
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 11, 2019 18:38:07 GMT
I have yet to actually use ice cage, so strong point there, throwing down 2 stationaries is not bad at all. I've been using them more mostly a rng 10 pow 12 gun, not the best use admittedly.
I have also only played one game with fenris, and i threw him into Zaal2 feated immmortals and hakaar, bad times. The rest of the time i was trying alexia2, who was very disappointing.
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Post by kovnikninehouse on Mar 11, 2019 19:39:09 GMT
Right now my Sorcha1 list list is 5 units of Doom Reavers, and Victor as the battle group. I also have the Adjunct in there so LotF only has a few safe spots to hid as the guidance will keep him a lot more honest
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flogger
Junior Strategist
Posts: 296
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Post by flogger on Mar 12, 2019 10:32:52 GMT
How do you feel Sorscha1 does stuff better than Zerkova1? Wouldn't the cloud wall help a lot with some of those bad matchups? I'm intrigued by this thread but having a WoW list that should handle infantry very good and not be able to play against SotN is a problem IMO.
Also, how does it work into Tharns you feel? You might hit one unit of ravagers with the feat but the other unit should be able to do a lot, no?
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Post by jonnyboy on Mar 12, 2019 11:19:54 GMT
How do you feel Sorscha1 does stuff better than Zerkova1? Wouldn't the cloud wall help a lot with some of those bad matchups? I'm intrigued by this thread but having a WoW list that should handle infantry very good and not be able to play against SotN is a problem IMO. Also, how does it work into Tharns you feel? You might hit one unit of ravagers with the feat but the other unit should be able to do a lot, no? There are a couple of key differences, Nothing that makes Z1 bad, she is just on a similar level as Vlad 1 play style. Anti cloud/concealment tech is out there, and it's getting harder to rely on, most factions have something. Zerkova's feat is also only one turn out of the game, while good, can be played around. Sorscha on the other hand does good work herself while supporting doomies quite well. Freezing grip is consistently good against 90% of the infantry out there. With a mass of medium base infantry, that's usually 1/3 of an enemies units not doing anything for as long as Sorscha pleases. Fog of war is sometimes helpful, sometimes really pointless, but it's there. Sorscha herself is pretty resilient to assassination, she hangs far back with 18-22 defense. She also has this great utility feat, save for the end game assassination or use it on as much of an army as possible for a nice time walk. With large units, they are either too far back to get clipped (and also aren't relevant) or they get frozen and jam everyone behind them. I havent played Iona/tharn, but I see two problems and the rest is gravy. The blood pack has hunter, so they're going to snipe out all the doomies they can, but with rng 12 im hoping sorscha will have the chance to freeze them. Lord of the feast will slaughter a lot of doomies. A puppet mastered, 2 focus, guidanced destroyer is one of our highest chances to kill him id say. Ravagers also only threat 11" where our doomies threat 13" and Ionas only defensive tech is high def/stealth. SoTN is as you say, a pretty hard counter. But so is WoD/rasheth into zerkova1. It really depends on your meta, and that's why we have pairings.
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