Zaku
Junior Strategist
Posts: 224
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Post by Zaku on Feb 28, 2019 12:48:01 GMT
My thoughts: - I foresee a huge issue balancing the performance of a Horror you paid points for and is on the table from one that popped and is ready to rumble. CID discussions will be heated. - 12/12 that just have to be in control range aren't really that vulnerable, especially when a heavy in the face can be the price of moving forward. Something valuable. - I’m REALLY curious about the point cost of those “super-soul” guys with powerful support abilities. I also want to know if they count for themes and how they are purchased for lists. - The hype is definitely on. Ppl want the REALLY scary monsters with distinct features. CG was not that. - How do you buy horrors? How many do you need to strike a balance between playability and price/transportation? I agree with you on summoning, while most of the testing will be done using 75 point games... How will adding in a free heavy every turn affect things like a Journeyman League, and games between 0-75 points? I can see summoning being WAY too strong in lower point levels. (edit.) Well, I don't think that I will have to worry too much about summoning or Infernals much in early Journeyman and 0 point games... As they will lack Cultists haha. And I agree that 12/12 cultists that only have to be within control range a bit worrying too. Maybe CMD or within 6" for sacrificing could work, but making it Control Range makes it hard to play against it, and make that "weakness" of Infernals actually be a weakness. I am also a bit nervous that the Horrors and army leaders are completely immune to Focus/Fury control effects and Disruption. I feel like that makes a lot of tools and warcasters/warlocks immediately useless. While I am excited to see the first CID rules drop... I am a bit nervous for what this can do to the game. I will just have to wait for the rules to be released before making any real judgements though.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Feb 28, 2019 13:12:23 GMT
Can I just add that they did say that in order to get the most out of Horrors, you're going to need cultists around to buff them? So keeping them back means that your horrors will not preform as well as they should kinda like Choir. They also mention that they're more akin to battle choir. To me, this probably means that mat / rat scores of the horrors are probably going to be sub-par, but with a boost from the Cultists, you'll get regular hitting power. It also means that to get your points for the cultists, they're probably gonna be glass cannon esc. but you'll want them in the mix. This of course is a risk, as in order to give that hitting power or hit themselves, cultists have to move up with the horrors. I imagine that this faction will probably take minimal Horrors to begin with (what ever the free points from the master allows) and then more then likely, you'll have swarms of cultists. Meaning that you'll have +40 cultists you have to burn through, while also dealing with Horrors on the field and spawning in. This means initially the first two turns of combat will be INTENSE followed by either a win for infernals, or a slow evaporation of their army. Which all sounds about where the Devs were going with it.
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Post by jisidro on Feb 28, 2019 13:53:27 GMT
Can I just add that they did say that in order to get the most out of Horrors, you're going to need cultists around to buff them? So keeping them back means that your horrors will not preform as well as they should kinda like Choir. They also mention that they're more akin to battle choir. To me, this probably means that mat / rat scores of the horrors are probably going to be sub-par, but with a boost from the Cultists, you'll get regular hitting power. It also means that to get your points for the cultists, they're probably gonna be glass cannon esc. but you'll want them in the mix. This of course is a risk, as in order to give that hitting power or hit themselves, cultists have to move up with the horrors. I imagine that this faction will probably take minimal Horrors to begin with (what ever the free points from the master allows) and then more then likely, you'll have swarms of cultists. Meaning that you'll have +40 cultists you have to burn through, while also dealing with Horrors on the field and spawning in. This means initially the first two turns of combat will be INTENSE followed by either a win for infernals, or a slow evaporation of their army. Which all sounds about where the Devs were going with it. Let me tell you that, in my experience, choir paingivers and such support aren't usually dead while the things they buff are alive.
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Feb 28, 2019 19:12:31 GMT
Let me tell you that, in my experience, choir paingivers and such support aren't usually dead while the things they buff are alive. Hence why I said “kinda” like choir. You pay what, 5 points for choir? What if they had decent attacks (same defensive stats) had to be within 3 of a jack in order for the jack to benefit from hyms, and instead of 5 points cost 10-16. You wouldn’t just have them sit at the back table, and while you might try and hide them, your horrors lose the effects as soon as they charge out of 3. So you run TONS of these guys so you can sack, take loses, and still get enough in to really hurt the enemy. A situation like this would mean that your ability to attrition would be harsh, and you would rely on hard hits early game or risk losing late (which is kinda what the devs said was going to be the play style). Also while choir may be a problem for some... I’ve never really had issue... so maybe that’s just me :/. At the end of the day we have to wait and see stats first, but I’m not worried. I think it’s a nifty idea that will just add more ways to play
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Feb 28, 2019 19:25:34 GMT
I love all this debate on not even half a rules set
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Feb 28, 2019 20:11:25 GMT
3. I hope this is the last of the mini factions that PP do for a while. Infernals are cool and have been long anticipated. But the game does not need another faction after this. It needs proper internal game balance and community building. Maybe the game doesn't, but PP sure does need to produce and sell New minis, and if the conversations I've heard are any indication, they need to do this now more than ever because Distributors are not ordering PPs old stuff anymore. And who can blame them? With such an enormous catalog, Distributors would be insane to invest their money in anything that is not the new shiny. I for one can't wait for the announcement of Mk 4 with consolidated SKUs, discontinued legacy models, with only 40 to 50% (or even less) options to build an army from. I mean, just the Warcasters alone could use a good culling. I hope that's not what they're going for, since without new players any game will die eventually. IMO, newer players would be better serviced if FLGS and Distributors didn't have to swim through the massive ocean of options that is WM/H.
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Post by NoSuchMethod on Mar 1, 2019 4:46:20 GMT
Also is anyone else concerned about solos that can hand off essence and then Horrors that can activate same turn they are summoned. Do we really need to work around More Molik Karn missiles? Or the combination - with any personal assination threat just summon, max out essence and then run your new transfer bot back out of danger. Somewhat concerned, but I think the turn / activation ordering is going to make those "live the dream" scenarios harder for the infernal player than it might initially appear. From going over the notes and the stream, it sounds like the order is (1) cut or chomp an infernalist to fill up essence, and (2) allocate to horrors if desired, up to their cap during control. and then (3) move up and spend 2 to 4 essence to summon a horror in B2B during the caster's activation, which comes in with 1 essence, (4) have one or more solos power boost the horror, and finally (5) launch the horror against your target, or run it backwards to soak transfers. And I don't believe the caster gets another opportunity to top up until your next turn comes around.
So, it's definitely cool, but in essence (ha) you're either pouring a ton of resources in to a pretty wild alpha strike / assassination vector, or spending a lot of resources to make yourself harder to assassinate. Plus, they said the horrors were squishier than either beasts or jacks, which sounds to me like they might not have a ton of boxes. That could curtail the value of the "free transfer" shenanigans significantly. Same goes for the need to pay the tithe on all your horrors every turn. Even for a 7 or 8 essence caster, if you've got a medium sized battlegroup and your horrors are doing a lot of buying/boosting, then your caster is burning through a good share of his stack every turn just to keep them in play. Mess up that economy, and all those sweet transfer targets are popping out of existence right as your opponent is lining up his assassination run.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 1, 2019 5:35:35 GMT
It also depends on what the actual stats of the Horrors and Masters are, and how much Essence they can actually have. A horror with an Essence stat of 2 can only have 2 Essence max, which limits its offensive potential.
And if an Essence 6 master summons an Essence 4 Horror, he's not doing much other than summoning that Horror. Which means limited buffing. It also presents order of activation issues since you are in the middle of your Master's activation, which could make things tricky depending on what else is going on.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 1, 2019 5:39:28 GMT
IMO, newer players would be better serviced if FLGS and Distributors didn't have to swim through the massive ocean of options that is WM/H. I have yet to see a single FLGS that stocked the complete product lineup of ANY table top wargame, with maybe an exception for something that was completely brand new and simply didn't have much released yet.
Game stores shouldn't try to stock everything. They should be stocked with starter sets and some basic expansions, and provide a place to play the game. If a player needs more advanced stuff they should special order the stuff through the store, or buy online.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Mar 1, 2019 6:27:16 GMT
If a player needs more advanced stuff they should special order the stuff through the store, or buy online. We're talking about doing things for the benefit of new players, and your solution is for them to know about some obscure direct sales route in the hopes that maybe they'll get new stuff, if it's On Hand, in about a week? (this is not even considering shipping to international players). When it comes to keeping the game alive, and healthy, with a natural rotation of players, for the next 10 years (at least), nothing should be off the table. But anyway, hey Infernals!
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Post by sand20go on Mar 1, 2019 6:28:20 GMT
Also is anyone else concerned about solos that can hand off essence and then Horrors that can activate same turn they are summoned. Do we really need to work around More Molik Karn missiles? Or the combination - with any personal assination threat just summon, max out essence and then run your new transfer bot back out of danger. Somewhat concerned, but I think the turn / activation ordering is going to make those "live the dream" scenarios harder for the infernal player than it might initially appear. From going over the notes and the stream, it sounds like the order is (1) cut or chomp an infernalist to fill up essence, and (2) allocate to horrors if desired, up to their cap during control. and then (3) move up and spend 2 to 4 essence to summon a horror in B2B during the caster's activation, which comes in with 1 essence, (4) have one or more solos power boost the horror, and finally (5) launch the horror against your target, or run it backwards to soak transfers. And I don't believe the caster gets another opportunity to top up until your next turn comes around.
So, it's definitely cool, but in essence (ha) you're either pouring a ton of resources in to a pretty wild alpha strike / assassination vector, or spending a lot of resources to make yourself harder to assassinate. Plus, they said the horrors were squishier than either beasts or jacks, which sounds to me like they might not have a ton of boxes. That could curtail the value of the "free transfer" shenanigans significantly. Same goes for the need to pay the tithe on all your horrors every turn. Even for a 7 or 8 essence caster, if you've got a medium sized battlegroup and your horrors are doing a lot of buying/boosting, then your caster is burning through a good share of his stack every turn just to keep them in play. Mess up that economy, and all those sweet transfer targets are popping out of existence right as your opponent is lining up his assassination run.
I would only point out that Retribution players in my meta have NO problem loading up Retribution jacks with all the solos that hand out focus and concentrated power. Not EVER a problem and they are essentially unkillable in the new terrain features until toward turn 4 on. It will have to be the central balancing aspect - which will be hard. Needs to be the key thing tested to see if too strong (and then if too strong if by tuning back the faction becomes too weak).
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 1, 2019 7:09:02 GMT
If a player needs more advanced stuff they should special order the stuff through the store, or buy online. We're talking about doing things for the benefit of new players, and your solution is for them to know about some obscure direct sales route in the hopes that maybe they'll get new stuff, if it's On Hand, in about a week? (this is not even considering shipping to international players). When it comes to keeping the game alive, and healthy, with a natural rotation of players, for the next 10 years (at least), nothing should be off the table. But anyway, hey Infernals! Any FLGS worth the name will special order stuff, and anybody who can afford this hobby also has internet access. Acting like those are barriers is just asinine. Game companies shouldn’t kill most of their product lines just so every game store can stock their whole line.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Mar 1, 2019 7:37:19 GMT
It will have to be the central balancing aspect - which will be hard. Needs to be the key thing tested to see if too strong (and then if too strong if by tuning back the faction becomes too weak). When it comes to testing I am quiet curious to see how this cid will go down, which too often boils down to a "moarr powerr" vs "totally beardy" poopflinging contest and PP being happy to see the first party win that argument. I do not trust cid to be able to balance something like this, so I hope they have done an excellent job themselves. It's been a while since we first heard about infernals, they've had a lot of time. If this started as someone's hobbyproject and gradually turned into a minifaction because they saw potential while fooling around with it this could turn out to he great. I really hope we don't mess it up ourselves.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Mar 1, 2019 7:48:50 GMT
Looks like a cool faction. I like the additonal resource management aspect, but summoning is a terrible idea. Good way to sell more models though.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Mar 1, 2019 8:53:49 GMT
Looks interesting. The idea of their “beasts/jacks” needing to pay to stick around is interesting. And it means that if they go all in on something they need to get filled with some more essence or they’ll go poof. Sacrificing a beast to win the game, or even gain a large advantage, is a no brainer and not much of a cost. But pretty much just to win the game. Ask Khador player how much they like the unstable rule, that just has a chance of exploding your Jack. Altough I am not super happy with the summoning then activating rule either. This would be fine if the Horror has to forfeit either movement or combar action in the turn it was summoned (is this known?).
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