tomw
Junior Strategist
Posts: 128 
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Post by tomw on Feb 22, 2019 22:28:47 GMT
I had a thought before, remember character restrictions from mk2? Just wondering, if they were still around today, which factions would benefit/suffer the most? Let’s try not to discuss whether or not it’d be good for the game, as that will probably derail the topic into faction balance and fixing the game as a whole.
(For newer players, in mk2, you couldn’t take the same character in both of your steamroller lists, although different versions of the same character were fine iirc)
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Post by michael on Feb 23, 2019 3:59:33 GMT
Thanks to themes, this would be almost totally irrelevant today. It would more or less only impact Mercenary solo choices.
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 23, 2019 4:10:38 GMT
Thanks to themes, this would be almost totally irrelevant today. It would more or less only impact Mercenary solo choices. A lot of Character solos in factions tend to be the go to solos for that faction, so it would have an impact. The Warcaster/Warlock Attachments are one such case, considering that many are Characters (unlike sr Squire). Because of the Theme restrictions, people have been making up for it with their own Faction selections to the point that it's almost not worth taking the Mercs/Mins with a couple of exceptions which provide otherwise unavailable services.
And then we look at doing most of the Mercenary Themes, and the concept really hits a hard place.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Feb 23, 2019 5:05:16 GMT
This is a quick and dirty way to approach this, but looking at OTC lists, we can see which character models in which factions are being taken more than once per player. From this, unless I am missing something, we have:
Alyce Marc (Crucivle Guard) — 30 instances out of 16 players (30/32 lists)
Lord of the Feast (Circle) - 39 instances out of 31 players (39/62 lists)
Ammok (Legion) - 10 instances out of 8 players (10/16 lists)
Arlan Strangewayes (Cygnar) - 11 instances out of 9 players (11/18 lists)
So, considering 90-something percent of CG lists have Alyce, I think they are the “winners”?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
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Post by Deller on Feb 25, 2019 7:04:36 GMT
the Factions that suffer are the ones that play two lists in the same theme. Ret Double Legions pairings or Legion Double PT suffers by losing out on character options. The factions that don’t care are the ones that play 2 themes with little to no character overlap. Circle doesn’t care when they pair Bones/Tharn. Cryx doesn’t care if they’re pairing Slaughter Fleet with an undead theme or Industries.
Character restriction needs to stay dead & gone. It was a band-aid solution to fix the problem of “these character models are so powerful there’s no reason not to take them”, so instead of giving you reasons not to take them, we’re just going to effectively ban them. That problem does not exist in Mk3. There’s no character model in Mk3 that’s so overwhelmingly powerful it’s wrong to not play them if your faction has access to them.
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martini
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by martini on Feb 25, 2019 9:32:45 GMT
There’s no character model in Mk3 that’s so overwhelmingly powerful it’s wrong to not play them if your faction has access to them. But everyone says that Lord of the Feast is overpowered and bad for the game. ;P |
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Post by custardboy on Feb 25, 2019 13:09:13 GMT
There’s no character model in Mk3 that’s so overwhelmingly powerful it’s wrong to not play them if your faction has access to them. But everyone says that Lord of the Feast is overpowered and bad for the game. ;P Well, yes, him. We haven't even seen peak broken in event results yet. Not everyone has got a hold of a blood shaman to give him Divine Inspiration 
It's just the odd solo that may be fielded in multiple lists in one faction. In some cases a jack/beast would, but they aren't available in the right/any themes like Typhon and Barathrum. There are some I'd expect to see in every list they can like Anastasia in warmachine armies and Eiryss1 in Retribution.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
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Post by gordo on Feb 25, 2019 14:03:35 GMT
Some characters are available to multiple themes, such as Aptimus Marketh who is available in every theme except Disciples of Agony.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
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Post by Deller on Feb 25, 2019 23:08:08 GMT
There’s no character model in Mk3 that’s so overwhelmingly powerful it’s wrong to not play them if your faction has access to them. But everyone says that Lord of the Feast is overpowered and bad for the game. ;P Unless competitive players have completely stopped playing Bones of Orboros because Lord of the Feast isn’t allowed, no, Circle is not warped around Lord of the Feast. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Feb 26, 2019 8:18:54 GMT
Unless competitive players have completely stopped playing Bones of Orboros because Lord of the Feast isn’t allowed, no, Circle is not warped around Lord of the Feast. To be fair, most of the recent DGI entries that have Circle in the top 3, which is a lot of them, play either double Devourer's Host, or Dev Host + Call of the Wild, with sometimes an odd Bones or Secret Masters. That of course doesn't have to mean anything, but there is at least some trending indicating that the Lord of the Feast is particularly popular. |
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Post by streetpizza on Feb 26, 2019 17:07:31 GMT
This is also ignoring character beasts / heavies.
Regarding circle I don't think it will be that uncommon to Ghetorix appear in both lists for some players. Ditto for Megalith if somebody is playing Baldur1 in DH and Kreuger2 in bones. This isn't nearly the same as LotF in commonality but it could affect list choices.
Weirdly enough I can't really see this being a problem on the beast/jack side of things for anybody else except maybe Legion and Skorne.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
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Post by mazog on Feb 26, 2019 23:40:03 GMT
This is also ignoring character beasts / heavies. Regarding circle I don't think it will be that uncommon to Ghetorix appear in both lists for some players. Ditto for Megalith if somebody is playing Baldur1 in DH and Kreuger2 in bones. This isn't nearly the same as LotF in commonality but it could affect list choices. Weirdly enough I can't really see this being a problem on the beast/jack side of things for anybody else except maybe Legion and Skorne. the protectorate has more character Jacks than anyone. This might be a problem for them. |
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Post by droopingpuppy on Feb 26, 2019 23:42:53 GMT
The factions with Character Attachment that is almost only viable option are suffered by it mostly.
Also, some essential solos to run some kind of list or bust such as Rhupert Carvolo.
It gets worse if a faction have the non-Character model equvalent that some faction does not, such as Empower solo. For example, Cygnar only have a Character solo to do(Arlan Strangewayes) while Greylord Forge Seer can do the same, so not only some faction has limited to employ such trait on a single list due to the comparison of FA: C and FA: 2+, they are also not able to field the same character on the other list. Although, in Empower case Cygnar can mitigate the problem by field FA: 1 Journeyman Warcaster as well as enjoy Arcane Shield on any faction lists.
The worst thing on here is the Character Unit Attachment - it means you can't augment such units on the other lists. It is already sucks for you can't have two or more Unit Attachment on the same list so it penalize your attempt to put two or more of same unit as well, but that's out of topic right now. Anyway, it gets even worse if the rules stays.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
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Post by Deller on Feb 27, 2019 2:06:01 GMT
Unless competitive players have completely stopped playing Bones of Orboros because Lord of the Feast isn’t allowed, no, Circle is not warped around Lord of the Feast. To be fair, most of the recent DGI entries that have Circle in the top 3, which is a lot of them, play either double Devourer's Host, or Dev Host + Call of the Wild, with sometimes an odd Bones or Secret Masters. That of course doesn't have to mean anything, but there is at least some trending indicating that the Lord of the Feast is particularly popular. Okay? Circle is also the most popular faction that’ll be at the OTC this weekend. conflictchamber.com/?event=610 of the 62 Circle lists, there’s only 39 Lords of the Feast. He’s not even in 100% of the lists in the themes that can take him, and at least 21 lists were brought in Themes that can’t play him. LotF is nowhere near as ubiquitous as say, Mk2 Eyriss2 prior to Character Restrictions. |
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crow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 310
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Post by crow on Feb 27, 2019 2:54:52 GMT
Not a popular belief but I actually miss characters not being aloud in two lists. It meant often you had to look at more options in your faction. For instance I can now run Ragman in every list, and in truth I very well might, but with character restricting him to one of my two lists, I then have to look outside of ragman if I want a damage buff in a second list.
Heck this might even help vary themes. For instance if I take Gorag in one primal terrors list, I wouldn’t be able to take him in a second and would have to think of what else I could build without using him. Just some random probably poor examples though, I’m sure there are better ones.
As for who would lose out the most? I’d probably say the two new mini factions. The mini factions both have a lot of character models that fill pretty key rolls, and with those restrictions may struggle to find a good two list pairing. That being said it might also open up more “design” space too as you could now release almost a “clone” of said character to allow for its abilities to be in two lists.
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