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Post by greytemplar on Feb 22, 2019 22:42:24 GMT
The simple solution is to make the Animi only work on "target friendly faction lesser warbeast".
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Post by Charistoph on Feb 22, 2019 23:49:23 GMT
Or animi left to support Lessers like the Agonizer? It still seems wrong to leave a Warbeast, even the tiny ones, without an animus. It would feel almost like having 30mm Warjacks without a Cortex.
Technically it could work, but I don't think it matches the spirit of the differences between Warmachine and Hordes.
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 23, 2019 8:22:11 GMT
The simple solution is to make the Animi only work on "target friendly faction lesser warbeast". That really might only be helpful with RNG self animi, but yeah, I suppose thats simple enough.
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Post by custardboy on Feb 24, 2019 4:55:45 GMT
There's no problem with them having animi. The shredder spammed tenacity in MK2 but that was it for lesser animi across the game. If anything, balancing the lessers including their animus would probably be easier because it gives you something else to tweak. If a model is working and its animus is pointless, fine. If something is slightly too good, give it a worse animus. If it isn't quite working, bump up the animus. If it is a dumpster fire, make it all about the animus.
As for the lessers themselves, I'd suggest the Shredder gets RNG 6 on its animus, Harrier gains Repo 3, Stinger gets its old suicidal attack back with higher POW, razor boar gets SPD 7 and pathfinder, reptile hound gains an ability that gets other reptile hounds in somehow (when it damages a model, other reptile hounds get acrobatics when charging that model?)
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 24, 2019 5:31:29 GMT
Reptile hound gains an ability that gets other reptile hounds in somehow (when it damages a model, other reptile hounds get acrobatics when charging that model?) Speaking of reptile hounds, I was giving them some thought. I know that they're kinda considered sub par. What if they went down a point, and traded Flank [Reptile Hound] for Gang Fighter [Faction Model]? It would separate them from the Shredder and let them not be more like, well, a hound. Skorne's best friend! Just a thought.
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Post by custardboy on Feb 24, 2019 6:57:37 GMT
Reptile hound gains an ability that gets other reptile hounds in somehow (when it damages a model, other reptile hounds get acrobatics when charging that model?) Speaking of reptile hounds, I was giving them some thought. I know that they're kinda considered sub par. What if they went down a point, and traded Flank [Reptile Hound] for Gang Fighter [Faction Model]? It would separate them from the Shredder and let them not be more like, well, a hound. Skorne's best friend! Just a thought. Yeah something like that could work, though just bringing them down to 3 points would likely do it on its own.
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 24, 2019 7:31:24 GMT
Speaking of reptile hounds, I was giving them some thought. I know that they're kinda considered sub par. What if they went down a point, and traded Flank [Reptile Hound] for Gang Fighter [Faction Model]? It would separate them from the Shredder and let them not be more like, well, a hound. Skorne's best friend! Just a thought. Yeah something like that could work, though just bringing them down to 3 points would likely do it on its own. Hm, well which would be preferred? I know I like the gang fighter idea, kinda makes them unique, but I could see PC 3 being valid as well.
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Post by gobber on Feb 24, 2019 7:49:50 GMT
Razor boars are only mat 5 which I find to be their main issue in general, and the primary limiter on the value of their countercharges (though the pig lights also being mat5 make me think this isn't going to change directly). Perhaps an increase to ps12 and swapping brutal charge for powerful charge? That'd make their unboosted charges/countercharges much more reliable. Increasing the base pow would also help with the frequent situation where they frenzy on something within 3" and hit thanks to the free boost but can't break armor...
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Post by davycannonhound on Feb 24, 2019 16:54:40 GMT
Razor boars are only mat 5 which I find to be their main issue in general, and the primary limiter on the value of their countercharges (though the pig lights also being mat5 make me think this isn't going to change directly). Perhaps an increase to ps12 and swapping brutal charge for powerful charge? That'd make their unboosted charges/countercharges much more reliable. Increasing the base pow would also help with the frequent situation where they frenzy on something within 3" and hit thanks to the free boost but can't break armor... I could see swapping brutal charge for powerful charge. I’d say P+S 11, not 12 though. But, maybe I’m under shooting, there.
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Post by gobber on Feb 24, 2019 20:17:23 GMT
Razor boars are only mat 5 which I find to be their main issue in general, and the primary limiter on the value of their countercharges (though the pig lights also being mat5 make me think this isn't going to change directly). Perhaps an increase to ps12 and swapping brutal charge for powerful charge? That'd make their unboosted charges/countercharges much more reliable. Increasing the base pow would also help with the frequent situation where they frenzy on something within 3" and hit thanks to the free boost but can't break armor... I could see swapping brutal charge for powerful charge. I’d say P+S 11, not 12 though. But, maybe I’m under shooting, there. Looking at the ps11 on the lights, that does seem more probable. Hard to know though; I debated ps11 vs 12 for a while (have to watch out for that arkadius/carver/helga maximum buff stack, though they're still the least efficient buff target). A boar that big probably weighs in the vicinity of 500 pounds so there's at least an argument for them to hit a bit harder than your standard spear? Though all that mass slamming into something seems like it'd be better represented by a slam or beat back type of rule though that's getting much more complicated.
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Post by custardboy on Feb 24, 2019 22:22:00 GMT
I could see swapping brutal charge for powerful charge. I’d say P+S 11, not 12 though. But, maybe I’m under shooting, there. Looking at the ps11 on the lights, that does seem more probable. Hard to know though; I debated ps11 vs 12 for a while (have to watch out for that arkadius/carver/helga maximum buff stack, though they're still the least efficient buff target). A boar that big probably weighs in the vicinity of 500 pounds so there's at least an argument for them to hit a bit harder than your standard spear? Though all that mass slamming into something seems like it'd be better represented by a slam or beat back type of rule though that's getting much more complicated.
They could hit a bit harder but I don't think that's really their role. Mat 6 would really help with being able to scalpel or disengage other models. The lights could just be Mat 6 too, thematically they're throwback farrow mutants, and farrow are all Mat 6 minimum- even the razorback and bone grinders. I'd like them to be 3 points with Spd 7 pathfinder because farrow are absolutely awful at trying to contest things and, well have you ever tried to catch a wild boar in a forest? I've seen those things run.
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Post by gobber on Feb 25, 2019 0:25:14 GMT
Mat buff of some form is really the important part; add other bells and whistles from there
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Post by copperflame on Feb 25, 2019 14:14:41 GMT
There's no problem with them having animi. The shredder spammed tenacity in MK2 but that was it for lesser animi across the game. If anything, balancing the lessers including their animus would probably be easier because it gives you something else to tweak. If a model is working and its animus is pointless, fine. If something is slightly too good, give it a worse animus. If it isn't quite working, bump up the animus. If it is a dumpster fire, make it all about the animus. As for the lessers themselves, I'd suggest the Shredder gets RNG 6 on its animus, Harrier gains Repo 3, Stinger gets its old suicidal attack back with higher POW, razor boar gets SPD 7 and pathfinder, reptile hound gains an ability that gets other reptile hounds in somehow (when it damages a model, other reptile hounds get acrobatics when charging that model?) The spam of Shredders is not what (I feel) PP was looking to prevent - but the 'must have' animus that impacted defense. I could be wrong but I thought I read where someone at PP stated that they didn't want to have animi that did this any more (nor was a 'must have' cost of a lesser good for the game/faction). MK2 Shredder spam vs MK3 Shredder spam... Rabid and Flanking almost give you the same warbeast. But with the clause that a Shredder MUST attack another Shredder, you couldn't run the little critters hot and let them go wild without watching your entire army devour itself. Without this rule, you could at least use tactics and positioning to off set the chance factor. Mind you... it still wasn't (no where near) good enough to be competitive but I enjoyed running the list here and there. I don't anymore. For wish listing how to make Legion lessers more viable, we have a few threads with a few different suggestions on the legion board. If anyone is curious - we can definately brush those off but I won't go there less its fun. I do want to counter the Stinger suggestion though. I would rather see it become a 'dedicated' range lesser with it's spray... something like it's spray has a boosted to hit and/or damage (like from it's animus or a special rule that any 'outside activation' is boosted to make it more about the counter-attack).
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